On,behind, or in front of the beat

[bucephylus]

IME, there is a fair bit of miscommunication among musicians in the rhythm section on this point.

I would first say that MOST popular music rooted in Blues wants emphasis on beats 2 and 4 to feel good. That is the hand clap / back beat. If you are getting that right then the line will feel good and tend to flow in a natural way. No one will hack on you for being in front of or behind the "beat."

Un"schooled" drummers drive me nuts with this; emphasizing most often the 1 and 3 on the kick drum and going soft on the rim shots or high hat for the 2 and 4. I usually just stop them and explain that the only thing I am listening for is the 2 and 4, and that needs to be the most heard; "just like the record."

Don't know if that helps; but, if you are getting that part right and the drummer is still got a twist for you being ahead of or behind the beat, I would tell him/her to get a life. Music is supposed to feel good. Getting overly clinical about it will throw a wet towel over the feel in a heartbeat.

 

[kgp311]

IMO, all the musicians need to be aware of how the song feels. It always bothered when someone recommends I play behind the beat when I play drums. With the feel of the song in place, I should always be on point with where I place my beats. I like when the band is tight and the theoretical "behind the beat" or "ahead of the beat" is just a vague way of describing rhythmic feel. Everyone needs to be in sync, not just 3/4 of a band.

 

[Lobster11]

IME, there is a fair bit of miscommunication among musicians in the rhythm section on this point....

Don't know if that helps; but, if you are getting that part right and the drummer is still got a twist for you being ahead of or behind the beat, I would tell him/her to get a life. Music is supposed to feel good. Getting overly clinical about it will throw a wet towel over the feel in a heartbeat.

Most of the discussion in this thread has focused on the second half of the O.P., i.e., the idea that playing slightly ahead or behind the beat can sometimes be a good thing. Your post serves as a reminder that the first half of the O.P. implies that the drummer's observation is meant as a criticism, not as a compliment. On that point....

I certainly agree that being "overly clinical" can sometimes spoil the fun, but I don't think getting the bass player and drummer in synch is one of those things. If we're not on the same page, the music just isn't going to sound good. So, it seems important to me for O.P. to figure out whether the drummer is right, and he really is playing ahead of the beat (in an undesirable way). My advice, then, would be to listen back to recordings of the band so you can judge more objectively; what feels right while you're playing might well not sound right when you listen to it later. I'd even make it a point to ask the drummer during practice to point out particular songs or places where he thinks you're you're "off", and make a note so you can be sure to listen to those particular parts of the recording afterwards to see if you agree. Also, have you asked the others in the band what they think?

I'm as happy as any bass player to blame everything on the drummer, but in this case I think it's worth making the effort to figure out if he's actually right. If he is, then it will be worth putting in some woodshed time to fix it -- that is, to develop the ability to play right on the beat when you want to.

 

[bucephylus]

Most of the discussion in this thread has focused on the second half of the O.P., i.e., the idea that playing slightly ahead or behind the beat can sometimes be a good thing. Your post serves as a reminder that the first half of the O.P. implies that the drummer's observation is meant as a criticism, not as a compliment. On that point....

I certainly agree that being "overly clinical" can sometimes spoil the fun, but I don't think getting the bass player and drummer in synch is one of those things. If we're not on the same page, the music just isn't going to sound good. So, it seems important to me for O.P. to figure out whether the drummer is right, and he really is playing ahead of the beat (in an undesirable way). My advice, then, would be to listen back to recordings of the band so you can judge more objectively; what feels right while you're playing might well not sound right when you listen to it later. I'd even make it a point to ask the drummer during practice to point out particular songs or places where he thinks you're you're "off", and make a note so you can be sure to listen to those particular parts of the recording afterwards to see if you agree. Also, have you asked the others in the band what they think?

I'm as happy as any bass player to blame everything on the drummer, but in this case I think it's worth making the effort to figure out if he's actually right. If he is, then it will be worth putting in some woodshed time to fix it -- that is, to develop the ability to play right on the beat when you want to.

Totally agree with all that. The point I was trying to make is that rhythm sections can get off on discussions of in front of vs behind the beat; where in reality they don't have the back beat emphasis correct. Another way to say it is that I have NEVER seen or heard a rhythm section that had great feel for the back beat get into heated discussions about in front of vs behind. Not once.

 

[Jbassrockboy]

The beat 2 & 4 stuff mentioned further up this thread is partly right but incomplete in terms of the role a bass has

Strong harmony notes on certain styles and situations should fall on beats 1 & 3

Beats 2 & 4 are important in terms of the drummer hammering home or implying the back beat

But beat 1 is home and the bass can and should always know where 1 is and emphasise it either directly or implied

Beat 3 provides some harmonic space because the drum backbeat is on 2 & 4 so a strong harmony on beat 3 also helps keep it solid

If you only love by 2 & 4 and your band is happy then good luck to you

But my playing experience opened up when I was educated and taught about the foundation of 1 & 3 because I then had a platform to work on for building direction

Doesn't mean I don't step on the power of 2 and 4 it jut means my approach on setting up a harmony is from the basis of strong harmonic pulse on 1 &3

If I do that well and the drummer is smacking out 2 &4 backbeat I then have a position to lay it back, sit it on top or smack on...

The point; think 1 & 3 of you play bass...

Not just my opinion... somewhat common knowledge ..

Rossa

 

[bucephylus]

Well, some of us clap on 1&3 in church and some clap on 2&4.

 

[Stone Soup]

Well, some of us clap on 1&3 in church and some clap on 2&4.

And, usually, the ones clapping on the 2 and the 4 are 'hipper', IMO IME... If they stomp on the one and three and clap on the two and four, they REALLY have it going on!

But seriously, if you have to think about playing ahead or behind instead of just feeling it, you probably aren't making people dance.

 

[AndrewFord]

Depends on what the song needs, the conversation is not always comfortable between drummers and bass players because we all have our comfort zone, the way we naturally hear grooves for instance I naturally hear things more relaxed or on the back side, that doesn't work for everything so at times I have to intentionally play more ahead or on top to drive the song more. If your tendency is to rush it may sound great in certain contexts but other times it may create friction for others in the band. The goal should be to be able to lay back when needed or push ahead if needed but you will probably still have your natural tendencies and that is ok

 

[Stone Soup]

If you don't feel the groove the way it was recorded, listeners probably can't pinpoint it, but they know something is wrong. If something seems wrong, the band isn't happening. When you force yourself to play ahead or behind, it feels forced and unnatural; like something's wrong.

 

[AndrewFord]

If you don't feel the groove the way it was recorded, listeners probably can't pinpoint it, but they know something is wrong. If something seems wrong, the band isn't happening. When you force yourself to play ahead or behind, it feels forced and unnatural; like something's wrong.

I understand your point, but some that do this frequently have become comfortable doing it where you would never know it, ultimately it gives the artist and the song what they need. The purpose is to accomplish your first statement, make it feel the same way it was recorded. You can "force" or remind yourself to play more legato, with more space, busier, and still have it feel totally natural if you do it enough. Ultimately you want to do it naturally, yes but you have to start somewhere.