On the Topic of Paying Gigs

[BluesWalker]

If the veunue brings you in to play 3-4 sets over a period of 3-4 hours, they must believe it helps business. Therefore, they should pay you. If they don't want to pay you, then you shouldn't be there helping out their businesss.

I have done these showcase gigs for no pay. They give you experience playing out with your band but 99% of the time they do not result in a gig, the bars that do this are using you. If they want to try out you are more successful doing a short opening set for their headliner.

 

[bgressman82]

Some services that you pay for, you know what the result is going to be before you pay. You go for an oil change and you know that in exchange for your $20 that you will have fresh oil and a new filter when you leave. Your car may explode from something unrelated five minutes after you leave, but you got the expected result from the service that you paid for.

With most other services, you pay in the hope of garnering a positive result, but there's no guarantee. You pay a PI to spy on your wife in hopes of catching her cheating but either the PI doesn't catch her or she just isn't cheating. Or you go to a masseuse thinking that when you walk out you'll feel great but when you get in your car you are still tense or even feel worse off than before because a headache started kicking in during the massage. Companies spend billions every year on advertising even though most can't effectively quantify the return on investment. In any of these cases, those that provide the service are paid for their time and effort.

Hiring a band is the same way. The only thing that you can count on when a band is hired is that your establishment will have live music. Whether that helps to draw more patrons or to keep people around longer buying drinks, you just don't know going into it since it is only one factor out of a multitude that determine success. Maybe the band will be awesome on a night that it rains and the stock market crashes, or maybe they will suck just as the home football team wins the championship. Maybe your bar just sucks and you are not cut out to run a business.

A band that has a proven track record can charge much higher premiums, but even with a superstar there is no guarantee of a return. Newbs who are considered worthy enough to be leveraged in a business environment deserve to be compensated for the services provided.

you make many good points, and i will say again, i'm not against bands getting paid. maybe i'm not being clear, i'm not great with words and all.

why is it so wrong to be asked by the venue to prove yourself before you make money? why should bands expect higher pay when the bar isn't making higher profit?

more to one of the many points behind this, i have a friend who plays piano every other week at a local restaurant. he makes 400 plus tips for a friday-saturday night, 4 hours each. he's recently demanded more money for his service, and from what i've seen he's not drawing significant business to justify it. he says their booked solid every weekend he's there, but they're also booked solid on the weekends he's not. and the weekdays. i tried to get a reservation, 4 month waiting list... but that's off topic.

yes, he deserves some form of compensation for being there, but he should be able to show results before expecting more. when he's there, people buy drinks and sit for a couple of hours. when he's not there, people buy meals, leave, and more come in. he should be greatful that they don't tell him they could make more money by moving more people through, and stop letting him play there. do you what i'm getting at here?

 

[bgressman82]

If the veunue brings you in to play 3-4 sets over a period of 3-4 hours, they must believe it helps business. Therefore, they should pay you. If they don't want to pay you, then you shouldn't be there helping out their businesss.

I have done these showcase gigs for no pay. They give you experience playing out with your band but 99% of the time they do not result in a gig, the bars that do this are using you. If they want to try out you are more successful doing a short opening set for their headliner.

but why should a band expect more than to break even if they haven't proven they draw the crowd?

 

[neurotictim]

okay, a cover band shouldn't have to draw crowds, so why should they expect more than a small fee for their playing there? the only exception i can see is a venue that has a cover band there every weekend, but around here i don't know of any that do it more than every other week. still, if it isn't the same cover band every weekend, let's say band a plays and the venue makes 500 in profit. band b plays and the venue makes 1500 in profit. why should both bands demand more money if only one of them is bringing it in?

IMO, cover bands should be getting paid for providing quality entertainment for the patrons of whatever venue they're playing. That's how it was when I first played a bar more than 10 years ago, and maybe that's why I think that - I was about 19, and I remember the bar manager saying to us, "Just keep their feet tapping and the beer flowing," and we did our best to make that happen, to the manager's approval. The more beer they bought, the better we were paid, and the bar manager gives callbacks to the bands that "keep 'em drinking and keep their feet tapping." We played there several times after the fact.

I just don't think that (and this is a generalization) that cover bands really need to make a name for themselves among patrons - among venues of course, but patrons go to see whoever's playing, IME. And cover bands aren't looking for a record deal, for the most part.

as for original bands go, that's all i've ever been in. i don't expect the venue to promote me, it's not their job. anything outside of letting us hang up some fliers and a signs on/around/outside saying we'll be there isn't their responsibility. it's up to the band to promote themselves, hang fliers around town, talk to people, go to other bands shows and promote, promote, promote

Original bands need to draw a crowd because that's how the "buzz" about them travels - IME, original bands are looking to "make it" and thus want as many people as possible following them. And the venues they play at should be making fliers, posting bulletins on MySpace and Facebook and whatnot, and trying to draw crowds to the venue on the strength of the quality of music they allow to be played.

IMO, if a bar establishes itself as being the "best venue for original metal bands" then the band is establishing it's credentials by playing there, and that's a sort of payment all it's own. And the metalheads in the area know that, and go to that bar knowing that they're going to see a rockin' metal band or four.

IME, It's good marketing to have both the band and the venue promoting a show, while it's band's responsibility to do their own promoting as well. You can draw both the "band crowd" and the "bar crowd" if you're both promoting, and several venues here locally do that.

Ultimately, I have been in both, and the cover bands establish what we wanted to earn as a flat rate, and the cover bands did a lot more for less pay and better "exposure" to the right types of people.

:shrug:

 

[bgressman82]

also, could everyone please post what type of band you're in? just curiosity, because as it's been pointed out, there is a difference between covers and originals.

 

[neurotictim]

Fundamentally, I agree with you - a band should have to prove itself before it can make demands. Which is why my current contemporary rock cover band is doing our thing for free this time, and for less than we eventually plan to charge for a while, before we start going full-price, so to speak.

I meant to add that in the 5 (or is it 6 now) bands I've been in, the bar's never been particularly forthcoming about how much they made specifically because we played there... Unless they were complaining about how much they didn't make. I always tend to disbelieve them, as it's in their best interests to pay as little as possible, and there are some "less than scrupulous" people out there...

Anyway, a cover band shouldn't have to lure a crowd, in my opinion. They should entertain the crowd, and if some people want to follow them around, then great. The more they entertain, the more people drink and eat and dance, the more that band can demand.

An original band needs people to follow them around, and the bars that cater to them should reflect that in their expectations and pay.

 

[bgressman82]

thanks, neurotictim, that was very insightful. everyone has been very helpful, and so far, no flaming. thank you to everyone.

i now see your points on cover bands being different, and how cover bands aren't trying to draw crowds, they're hired to entertain. i've never thought about it that way.

i've never been in a cover band, and many of the posts that caused me to start this thread were done by cover guys. thanks to everyone who helped me see it from a cover band perspective.

 

[bgressman82]

okay, i've been thinking about it now, and i've got more questions. i don't know if this would justify a new thread or not, but here goes.

to the people who make their living off playing gigs:

1. how many gigs do you play per week?
2. tip jar? i've gotten the feeling before that a tip jar is a no no, but if you're at a bar/club where the waitresses and bar staff make their living off tips, isn't it fair that most of your income be from tips as well?
3. do you play mostly the same venues, or do you add a lot of new ones?

and this one is going to some specific people, whom i will not name. i've gotten the feeling from reading some posts on other threads that people aren't happy with their gig pay, and are trying to blame other bands for "undercutting" them and causing them to lose money. if your band deserves more money than others, shouldn't your band be more profitable for the venue? and, if your band is more profitable for the venue, why can't you just negotiate a better deal instead of blaming the bands who have a lower price?

 

[JMacBass65]

Some services that you pay for, you know what the result is going to be before you pay.
[snip]
With most other services, you pay in the hope of garnering a positive result, but there's no guarantee.
[snip]
Hiring a band is the same way. The only thing that you can count on when a band is hired is that your establishment will have live music.

Whether that helps to draw more patrons or to keep people around longer buying drinks, you just don't know going into it since it is only one factor out of a multitude that determine success.

Dude, that was flippin' brilliant.

This is what I have thought for some time, but was never able to convey in quite the way you have just done. Thank you for that.

I think it is kinda weak if a club expect bands to carry them. What's the point? Why are you even in the business? What are you doing to create a scene there? What are you doing to drive customers in? Hanging a "Live Music" sign in the window isn't enough anymore.

OTOH - As stated elsewhere, bands need to hold up their end too. Bands that simply think they deserve to have a venue to play and a captive audience just because they think they are awesome need to grow up.

 

[JMacBass65]

most businesses can expect to lose money in their first 2-5 years of operation, so why should a band in business expect profit from day 1?

Who said profit?

Frankly, I think you'd need to be getting paid in the thousands (per band, not individual) for quite a number of gigs before you could call anything a profit.

What it really is about for so many in the "local" scenes is recouping losses.

Think about it, once you factor in all of the time practicing, as individuals and as a group, travel (time & miles), promo materials, equipment, meals, a CD, website, who knows, I'm sure there is more.

Who is really making a "profit"?

Again, it goes both ways. Clubs shouldn't exect bands to prop up their business, and bands need to do all that they can to create a service (yes, I said it) that the club owner wants to have there and pay for it.

 

[skidrawk]

I'm in an 80's tribute band. Our show takes you back to 1984.

 

[bgressman82]

Who said profit?

Frankly, I think you'd need to be getting paid in the thousands (per band, not individual) for quite a number of gigs before you could call anything a profit.

What it really is about for so many in the "local" scenes is recouping losses.

Think about it, once you factor in all of the time practicing, as individuals and as a group, travel (time & miles), promo materials, equipment, meals, a CD, website, who knows, I'm sure there is more.

Who is really making a "profit"?

Again, it goes both ways. Clubs shouldn't exect bands to prop up their business, and bands need to do all that they can to create a service (yes, I said it) that the club owner wants to have there and pay for it.

well, i don't consider practice, gear, meals, or a website as band expenses.

clubs don't need bands to get business, that's why i don't understand bands claiming they deserve more money to play there, unless they are providing an increase in profit for the club. even at that, the club doesn't owe the band 100% of the profit paid, because they own the stage, provide the drinks, wait staff, etc...

it just seems that some people out there are being too greedy and egotistical.

 

[EddiePlaysBass]

it just seems that some people out there are being too greedy and egotistical.

Does that apply to bands, bar owners or both? I once booked us a show at a local bar.

First email they said "Oh we'll pay you." We were fine with that.

Second they said "Well, we'll just pay you for renting a sound system but we can't pay more than that." At the time we did not have decent equipment for the singer, so we said "sure".

Third email they say "Hey can you maybe get that gear for free? We don't want to pay for that."

I told her to forget the whole idea because I was sure that the next email she'd be demanding that not only we pay for free, pay the rent for the equipment but also provide kegs of beer so she wouldn't have to pay her supplier.

Granted, as a band we should have made sure we had decent equipment but she agreed on all counts and then came back on every step. Plus now, almost a year later, she is still badmouthing us as well for not wanting to play her joint for free. As if she's [insert appropriate deity] gift to bands !

And for the record, we recently played a bar with minimal advertising up front, and totally packed the place. Usually he draws 5 - 10 people, and when we played there was 30 - 40 people there. On a night when there was a big festivity going down in the community centre.

 

[txbasschik]

If a venue hires my band for an agreed rate of pay, and for an agreed number of performances, and we don't bring in a crowd, that venue has the option of not hiring us again.

If we do bring in a crowd and everyone's making money, they can continue to hire us, and over time, raise our pay.

But if we play for free, that venue will always undervalue us, because we didn't even think enough of ourselves to ask a fair price.

BTDT, and I know what I'm talking about. No one will ever give you more value than you give yourself.

Cherie

 

[txbasschik]

okay, i've been thinking about it now, and i've got more questions. i don't know if this would justify a new thread or not, but here goes.

to the people who make their living off playing gigs:

1. how many gigs do you play per week?
2. tip jar? i've gotten the feeling before that a tip jar is a no no, but if you're at a bar/club where the waitresses and bar staff make their living off tips, isn't it fair that most of your income be from tips as well?
3. do you play mostly the same venues, or do you add a lot of new ones?

and this one is going to some specific people, whom i will not name. i've gotten the feeling from reading some posts on other threads that people aren't happy with their gig pay, and are trying to blame other bands for "undercutting" them and causing them to lose money. if your band deserves more money than others, shouldn't your band be more profitable for the venue? and, if your band is more profitable for the venue, why can't you just negotiate a better deal instead of blaming the bands who have a lower price?

Addressing the issue of tip jars...

Most bars will allow you to have a tip jar displayed, and so long as you also encourage patrons to tip the bartenders/wait-staff, you can solicit tips, too. Even better if you have someone to pass the bucket for you.

Some bars do not allow tip jars, which is fine by me if we are getting a flat rate of pay.

The only time a tip jar is a real no-no is for corporate gigs, and paid private parties and weddings. Generally, the band is getting paid well for these, and to ask for tips would be in poor taste.

Cherie

 

[txbasschik]

you make many good points, and i will say again, i'm not against bands getting paid. maybe i'm not being clear, i'm not great with words and all.

why is it so wrong to be asked by the venue to prove yourself before you make money? why should bands expect higher pay when the bar isn't making higher profit?

more to one of the many points behind this, i have a friend who plays piano every other week at a local restaurant. he makes 400 plus tips for a friday-saturday night, 4 hours each. he's recently demanded more money for his service, and from what i've seen he's not drawing significant business to justify it. he says their booked solid every weekend he's there, but they're also booked solid on the weekends he's not. and the weekdays. i tried to get a reservation, 4 month waiting list... but that's off topic.

yes, he deserves some form of compensation for being there, but he should be able to show results before expecting more. when he's there, people buy drinks and sit for a couple of hours. when he's not there, people buy meals, leave, and more come in. he should be greatful that they don't tell him they could make more money by moving more people through, and stop letting him play there. do you what i'm getting at here?

$400 to play the piano!?!? OMG...that's huge compared to what most bands here get.

I think I would faint if we got a $400 local gig that wasn't on NYE.

Cherie

 

[skidrawk]

Our local swinger's club pays per person. $1000 a person to be exact. Its a shame our band leader says "never again" LOL.

 

[jimulate]

Here's something that a friend of mine (who's a pub landlord) used to do - bear in mind this is only applicable to original bands, not cover bands;

He would let the bands/promotors organise the whole event themselves, including all promotion, and then let them charge on the door (on the condition that he could still let his regulars in for free). After the night was over, the bands would get to keep 100% of the door money and he would keep 100% taken over the bar.

This way, it made no difference to him how many people came to see the bands and at the end of the day the bands got paid based on how well they promoted the gig. Personally I think this worked pretty well and I think if suggested to a lot of club/pub owners they'd be quite keen on this arrangement.

Jim

 

[skidrawk]

Here's something that a friend of mine (who's a pub landlord) used to do - bear in mind this is only applicable to original bands, not cover bands;

He would let the bands/promotors organise the whole event themselves, including all promotion, and then let them charge on the door (on the condition that he could still let his regulars in for free). After the night was over, the bands would get to keep 100% of the door money and he would keep 100% taken over the bar.

This way, it made no difference to him how many people came to see the bands and at the end of the day the bands got paid based on how well they promoted the gig. Personally I think this worked pretty well and I think if suggested to a lot of club/pub owners they'd be quite keen on this arrangement.

Jim

Define regular. Someone who doesn't want to pay the door fee?

 

[jimulate]

define regular.

Regulars in this case meant people he personally knew by name - although he'd generally have a deal to have a specific number of "tickets" (10-20 depending on the night) agreed with the promoter, so he had to be fairly picky as to who was let in as a "regular".

Jim