On the Topic of Paying Gigs

[cassanova]

that's definately part of it... but my point is more that the venue doesn't owe the band anything if the band isn't helping the venue make more money. most certainly, crappy bands that no one wants to see aren't drawing crowds, and therefore don't deserve payment.

If the club agreed to pay the band then the club does owe the band something, they owe them compensation for services rendered. If the band is that crappy then the club owner should not have hired them.

but this is mostly directed to people here on the site who seem convinced that their band should get paid for every gig, even their first gig with their band or their band's first time in a city/venue or what not. and even more so to the people who complain about the payment they recieve for their gigs not being enough.

If the band and establishment agree to specific compensation amount then it should be honored. Just because its a bands first gig doesn't mean they are a sub-par band either. They could be spectacular.

In all my years of playing (23) I've found that the better bands don't and will not usually play the whole in the wall dives that only pay $25 - $50 a person. It's always the crap to mediocre bands that play the type of gigs. Another huge factor that determines rate of pay IME is the style of music you are playing. Classic rock, rock, and metal bands will not get into the more upscale, better playing clubs because it's not music you can dance to.

So, IMO/IME you have to place that blame on the band itself. But regardless if the club/band agree to a rate of pay then no matter how crappy the band is then they should be paid at the nights end for services rendered. If they are fired by the club half way through the night or whenever, then they should still receive a percentage of whatever the total compensation was worth. EX: Play 1/2 the night then you only get half of the pay.

 

[lonote]

There are so many variables involved in this topic that it boggles the mind. We are a blues band, aged mid-40's - 60. We have all been around the block numerous times. We play a mix of originals and covers and have a recently released CD consisting of 16 originals. We donate our services on rare occasions, usually fund-raisers to benefit members of the local blues community who need financial help. Other than that, we don't play for free. Generally we get paid a pre-determined fee, although sometimes we get a piece of the door or a piece of the bar take in addition to our fee. We don't need to audition or play for free because people know us and have heard us, either in this band or other bands we've been in for the past 20+ years. We aren't big stars or anything but we've been around for a while. There are, I'm sure, other bands in other genres (like classic rock) that are in a similar situation. I guess we all have to do what we have to do to survive. I will say that I think musicians who defend bars that won't pay them are a mystery to me. The bars look out for their own best interests and we need to look out for our best interests...and playing for free in 99% of circumstances is a bad idea.

 

[Tampabass]

There are so many variables involved in this topic that it boggles the mind. We are a blues band, aged mid-40's - 60. We have all been around the block numerous times. We play a mix of originals and covers and have a recently released CD consisting of 16 originals. We donate our services on rare occasions, usually fund-raisers to benefit members of the local blues community who need financial help. Other than that, we don't play for free. Generally we get paid a pre-determined fee, although sometimes we get a piece of the door or a piece of the bar take in addition to our fee. We don't need to audition or play for free because people know us and have heard us, either in this band or other bands we've been in for the past 20+ years. We aren't big stars or anything but we've been around for a while. There are, I'm sure, other bands in other genres (like classic rock) that are in a similar situation. I guess we all have to do what we have to do to survive. I will say that I think musicians who defend bars that won't pay them are a mystery to me. The bars look out for their own best interests and we need to look out for our best interests...and playing for free in 99% of circumstances is a bad idea.

+1

And I'll have to add, Have you ever heard of a club asking a bartender to work free for the exposure, or asking a security guy to work free for the exposure?

Fundraisers for your favorite charities -- up to a limit -- and parties at your friend's house and maybe for your church, as an expression of your personal ministry, are one thing.

Playing for free in most other situations is nearly always a bad idea - generally leads to more "free exposure" gigs and hurts other musicians by contributing to the idea that a musician's time and talent are worth nothing.

 

[Ed Goode]

There are so many variables involved in this topic that it boggles the mind. We are a blues band, aged mid-40's - 60. We have all been around the block numerous times. We play a mix of originals and covers and have a recently released CD consisting of 16 originals. We donate our services on rare occasions, usually fund-raisers to benefit members of the local blues community who need financial help. Other than that, we don't play for free. Generally we get paid a pre-determined fee, although sometimes we get a piece of the door or a piece of the bar take in addition to our fee. We don't need to audition or play for free because people know us and have heard us, either in this band or other bands we've been in for the past 20+ years. We aren't big stars or anything but we've been around for a while. There are, I'm sure, other bands in other genres (like classic rock) that are in a similar situation. I guess we all have to do what we have to do to survive. I will say that I think musicians who defend bars that won't pay them are a mystery to me. The bars look out for their own best interests and we need to look out for our best interests...and playing for free in 99% of circumstances is a bad idea.

I'm in a very similar situation .... classic rock cover band, older guys (late '40's to late '50's), been around for a long time, established band (16 years), following, etc. Just like lonote, not superstars or recording artists, but good to very good musicians that are professional in all ways.

The thing that is very evident to me is that the current music climate for most of the guys who do gigs here at TB is far less professional than it was in the past. And by less professional I mean in all facets .... bands, venues, promotion, clients, musicianship, appearance .... just about everything. Considering how many players on this board are willing to work for free, it's obviously a trend that has taken a firm hold.

Cover bands in my area are, generally, rather bad and also pretty unprofessional. There is no reason to be late to the gig (or not show up at all), to be gratuitously loud, or blitzed from drinking/drugging, or filling the venue with non-drinking underaged customers sipping a Pepsi and stepping outside to blow some weed. There is no reason to not have a completely full evening of tunes to play, no reason to take excessively long breaks, no reason to show up with faulty equipment.

For those that lament the increasing use of DJ's or karaoke at clubs, just think about what the live music alternative is. A DJ or KJ will go all night, no breaks, playing the same stuff your band plays .... at a controlled volume, massive list of tunes that can be requested, and they'll work cheaper than your band.

The age of professionalism in the local music scene is very nearly dead .... too many casual hobby-ists getting their chuckles by playing live gigs, but not taking care of the business end of things. Truthfully, I'm kinda glad I'm old and established .... it'd be a real drag trying to be a young professional musician in this environment ......

 

[denhou1974]

Again, I think it depends on the city. Most popular bars in my hometown have bands. People are going to those places to socialize, drink, and hear live music. That being said, if a venue decides to stop hiring bands then their clientele will go somewhere else. If they decide to cut their band budget then they will only be able to get bands that are willing to play for that [low] amount. Crappy bands will drive a crowd away too.

Granted, some cover bands do have a big following. However, most people these days aren't going to chase bands all around town (at least not this town - it's too spread out). They want to patronize venues that are known to have good bands.

 

[lonote]

.

The thing that is very evident to me is that the current music climate for most of the guys who do gigs here at TB is far less professional than it was in the past. And by less professional I mean in all facets .... bands, venues, promotion, clients, musicianship, appearance .... just about everything. Considering how many players on this board are willing to work for free, it's obviously a trend that has taken a firm hold.

Cover bands in my area are, generally, rather bad and also pretty unprofessional. There is no reason to be late to the gig (or not show up at all), to be gratuitously loud, or blitzed from drinking/drugging, or filling the venue with non-drinking underaged customers sipping a Pepsi and stepping outside to blow some weed. There is no reason to not have a completely full evening of tunes to play, no reason to take excessively long breaks, no reason to show up with faulty equipment.

For those that lament the increasing use of DJ's or karaoke at clubs, just think about what the live music alternative is. A DJ or KJ will go all night, no breaks, playing the same stuff your band plays .... at a controlled volume, massive list of tunes that can be requested, and they'll work cheaper than your band.

The age of professionalism in the local music scene is very nearly dead .... too many casual hobby-ists getting their chuckles by playing live gigs, but not taking care of the business end of things. Truthfully, I'm kinda glad I'm old and established .... it'd be a real drag trying to be a young professional musician in this environment ......

That's it in a nutshell, folks. If you want to be regarded as a "professional musician," then be a "professional musician" and act like a "professional musician." If you behave badly, play poorly, look like something the cat dragged in and are willing to play for free, it should be no surprise when you can't get paying gigs. This is not intended to flame anybody but, rather, it is some advice from older guys who've been there. There is no reason to try and re-invent the wheel.

 

[bgressman82]

$400 to play the piano!?!? OMG...that's huge compared to what most bands here get.

I think I would faint if we got a $400 local gig that wasn't on NYE.

Cherie

close, $400 plus tips. he usually walks out with around $800 for playing piano for 8 hours in one weekend. oh, and he sings, too. it's an upscale restaurant, the tips are good.

but, he seems to think he needs more than that.

it strikes me that if you're going to play for a living, you should expect to play more than an average of one gig per week. and, if you really are worth as much as you think you are, venue owners won't have an issue with paying more.

i hate the egotistical.

around here, we have many cover bands, and payment is one issue they always complain about. they whine because a dj can make more than them, and find more gigs. reality is, if you're going to play a dance club, with mostly 20 somethings, they don't want to hear 70's rock, they want to hear modern dance music. the dj is able to do a better job entertaining the people because he takes requests and doesnt just assume he knows what an audience wants. to me, that completely justifies the dj making more and getting more gigs. maybe i'm just crazy.

i also have the same issue with the bands who play top 40 stuff in a bar that is frequented by mostly bikers and metal heads. i'm related through marriage to the owner of this bar, and he's an honest guy. if your band wants to play there, he'll pay you. i've heard a lot of bands bashing this guy for not paying enough, but come on, nobody at this bar cares to hear top 40 stuff or 70's rock. the only band that hasn't complained has been the original hard rock band, who happens to get more than the cover bands do. than again, the original band can come out, play for an hour and pack the place, while the cover guys can play all night to a dead audience.

and finally, i'm going to vent on the one thing that gets me more than all others. you guys who think you're too good to audition for a gig, and think you're doing everyone a favor by playing there, let me ask you, would you buy a car without a test drive? would you pay to take a test drive on a car you aren't sure about? ditch your ego. just because a musician says they can play, doesn't mean you let them in your band. you give them an audition. just because you think your band knows what people want to hear, doesn't mean you've got an audience, and, just because you claim your crappy band can entertain people, doesn't mean you will. we all know the reason you don't audtition for a bar owner is because you aren't good enough to land a gig that way. quit going around acting like you're the greatest cover band in the state, you and your kind are a dime a dozen, and that bar owner doesn't owe you a thing for your percieved greatness. he is putting his bars reputation on the line by letting you play there, the same way you put your band reputation on the line when you hire a crappy guitar player. if you absoulutely can't afford to play an audition for a bar, get a day job like a responsible adult. you're the reason we all get accused of being lazy.

 

[the yeti]

and, if your band is good enough to deserve serious money, how will a few free gigs early on or at a venue you haven't proven yourself at hurt that?

'cos being a club owner is like any other business, and successful businesses typically don't pay more than they have to for goods/services?

 

[bgressman82]

That's it in a nutshell, folks. If you want to be regarded as a "professional musician," then be a "professional musician" and act like a "professional musician." If you behave badly, play poorly, look like something the cat dragged in and are willing to play for free, it should be no surprise when you can't get paying gigs. This is not intended to flame anybody but, rather, it is some advice from older guys who've been there. There is no reason to try and re-invent the wheel.

i've never seen you play, so i'm not talking to you personally. your band might be awesome, i don't know. i'm talking to the people who have a similar attitude to yours, but can't back it up.

just so you know, if you take offense at this, chances are it's because it's true about you.

things have changed since 76, and just because something worked back then doesn't mean it works now. there's more options for a venue owner now, so why should he assume that just because you're in your 50's and wearing a suit that you're going to entertain his audience? i've seen these bands play, i've run into these guys in the local music stores, thinking they're just so great and complain about their low gig pay. funny thing is, from the audience, it didn't look like anyone was enjoying it. check your ego. if it takes a paid gig for you to be happy, and the money isn't doing it for you, maybe you should take the time to learn what the people who frequent the clubs you play at want to hear, and not just assume everyone shares your love for classic rock radio.

and, if you are the beatles cover band who played at the biker bar a few weeks ago, quit now. i was there, no one liked it, you're lucky they didn't hand out bottles that night. and your in between song jokes about how we needed to love the classics should have gotten you beat up.

okay, i feel better now.

 

[bgressman82]

'cos being a club owner is like any other business, and successful businesses typically don't pay more than they have to for goods/services?

then prove yourself and negotiate a price. if you really did entertain people, and draw money for the bar, you'll have no problem getting paid to come back.

 

[bgressman82]

screw it, i'm gonna go start a mindless rant thread in the humor section.

 

[lonote]

I've just got to ask...what is your problem, specifically? Do you really think that, on the whole, bar bands are overpaid? Are you able to get any gigs, paid or otherwise? You seem to be very hostile toward bands who want to get paid. I guess I'm trying out figure out why you have such an enormous chip on your shoulder and what caused it. Your posts are just one continuous rant that sounds like it is coming from a bar owner rather than a musician. To help you put things into perspective, if you're good enough (at the things pointed out earlier as being professional) to get paid, you get paid. If you're not good enough, you don't. It is just as simple as that.

 

[the yeti]

then prove yourself and negotiate a price. if you really did entertain people, and draw money for the bar, you'll have no problem getting paid to come back.

it's not really a problem for me. you wanted to know how playing for free negatively impacted a bands future income. i proposed 1 of many possibilities.

let's look at it a different way, someone used a mechanic as an example before. should the mechanic work on your car the first time for free? to "prove himself'? how about a teacher (i like taht better- being taught is almost as subjective as being entertained.) should they work for free until their efforts bear fruit?

a person who agrees to work for free is telling their employer they regard themselves as worthless, whether they mean to or not. acts of charity are notable exceptions.

 

[the yeti]

I've just got to ask...what is your problem, specifically? Do you really think that, on the whole, bar bands are overpaid? Are you able to get any gigs, paid or otherwise? You seem to be very hostile toward bands who want to get paid. I guess I'm trying out figure out why you have such an enormous chip on your shoulder and what caused it. Your posts are just one continuous rant that sounds like it is coming from a bar owner rather than a musician. To help you put things into perspective, if you're good enough (at the things pointed out earlier as being professional) to get paid, you get paid. If you're not good enough, you don't. It is just as simple as that.

i was kinda wondering about your motivation too.

screw it, i'm gonna go start a mindless rant thread in the humor section.

so you're asking the mods to move this?

 

[GOX42]

here's my .02$

THe sad thing is venues really don't care if your good as long as you draw a crowd...the cover band I play in ...sucks....we never practice, two of the guys see it as a job so that puts pressure on the other 2 of us and we generally half ass it through the songs. but we draw a crowd because we play songs people want to hear and there is a party atmosphere when we play.....

true story.....I think I'm a good bass player and hoped other would see that but my 1st gig with this band was on 3 days notice and I didn't know any of the songs (except the chili peppers) they said it would be fine.....I played like **** learning the songs on the fly. I was pretty much ashamed of myself when we were done but lo'n'behold everyone said "dude you a great bass player" fact is most people don't know if the band is good or not because a crowd draws more of a crowd.....it sounds stupid but around here thats the facts

 

[jelpo]

Yeah Man. You seem angry, what's your problem? Don't you wanna get paid?

I've been in a cover band for 9 years, it's a soul band. We never played a bar or a club for free, ever. The only free shows we've done were for exposure in front of very large audiences. We do 1 or 2 free exposure gigs a year.

1. We play 2 to 4 gigs a week.
2. What txbasschik said about the tip jar was right on.
3. We play 7 to 8 of the same venues, but we are always looking for new places to play (even out of town.)

I won't even think about doing a gig unless I'm getting $50. I always get more tho.

well, i don't consider practice, gear, meals, or a website as band expenses.

You should. It is a business, and that is part of your costs.

 

[fdeck]

if you absoulutely can't afford to play an audition for a bar, get a day job like a responsible adult. you're the reason we all get accused of being lazy.

I've never played an audition for a bar. It's not a matter of my ego, but simply that I have never needed to do it, and I think it would do me more harm than good in the long run because of the effect on my reputation.

The big difference is that I'm a jazz musician, and that's a completely different animal than a rock band. I market myself to bands, not to venues, and my value proposition is simple: You have a gig coming up and you need a bassist. Hire me and you know that everything will be taken care of. In the jazz scene, there is simply no use for an unqualified bassist who is willing to play for free.

Another difference is that jazz bassists mostly share a set of reasonably well defined credentials. A bandleader can ask me a few questions over the phone and get an idea if I'm for real or not. Also, because jazz bassists do a lot of subbing, it's possible to build up a reputation by word of mouth that eliminates the need for an audition.

Note I am not saying jazz is "better" than rock in any way. The things that make it frustrating to earn a wage as a rock player may also be necessary for the vitality and endless renewal of rock music, namely the ability for anybody to pick up a guitar and form a band without extensive formal training. I would also point out that while a sufficiently competent jazz player can start playing paid gigs right away, those gigs will never pay as well as what a good cover band can earn.

 

[bgressman82]

I've just got to ask...what is your problem, specifically? Do you really think that, on the whole, bar bands are overpaid? Are you able to get any gigs, paid or otherwise? You seem to be very hostile toward bands who want to get paid. I guess I'm trying out figure out why you have such an enormous chip on your shoulder and what caused it. Your posts are just one continuous rant that sounds like it is coming from a bar owner rather than a musician. To help you put things into perspective, if you're good enough (at the things pointed out earlier as being professional) to get paid, you get paid. If you're not good enough, you don't. It is just as simple as that.

my problem, is that i think there are too many bands out there with the wrong attitude, and that makes it harder for everybody as a whole.

i don't think some bands are overpaid, but i do feel a lot of bands who constantly complain about being underpaid, are making more than they should. as musicians, it's our job to entertain people, but beyond that, we're hired by venues to make money for the venue. complaining, causing problems for venues, not paying attention to what the audience wants, and refusing to realize times have changed have caused quite a few venues in my area to resort to hiring djs or karaoke. and so few musicians actually see themselves as having any responsibility for this.

also, the attitude of so many is that "bar owners are the enemy". no, bar owners are the ones with the money, therefore the ones calling the shots. and, they are justified in wanting to know if your band can perform or not before investing in you. if a band can't bring in revenue, there's no point in a business hiring a band. so many bands seem to think that bringing in revenue isn't their job, they just have to "entertain" the ones that are there. that's not the case. why should a bar owner pay your band if your band isn't helping out the bar? wether you like it or not, that bar doesn't need the band to make money, the band needs the bar.

on top of this, there are enough impressionable young musicians on this sight and out in the world seeing the older musicians doing this sort thing to think that this is the way to go, ensuring unnecissary b.s. for the bands of the next generation.

so really, if you aren't one of the so-called "professional" who is "too good to even entertain the thought of having to prove himself" and "isn't here to make the bar more money" and "doesn't need a following" and can't seem to understand that your bad gig wasn't the fault of the bar owner's bad booking, or the audience just not appreciating you, or the bad economy, than my posts really aren't directed to you.

 

[bgressman82]

it's not really a problem for me. you wanted to know how playing for free negatively impacted a bands future income. i proposed 1 of many possibilities.

let's look at it a different way, someone used a mechanic as an example before. should the mechanic work on your car the first time for free? to "prove himself'? how about a teacher (i like taht better- being taught is almost as subjective as being entertained.) should they work for free until their efforts bear fruit?

a person who agrees to work for free is telling their employer they regard themselves as worthless, whether they mean to or not. acts of charity are notable exceptions.

why does everyone think they can compare the service industry with the entertainment industry?

let me ask you this, should an actor audition for a film? the director's goal is to entertain people. if he isn't entertaining, he doesn't make money. he's got the script, the camera, and the set, and his film has to make enough money to pay for all of that, plus a profit. now, let's say the actors refused to audition, and thought that they should be cast just because they claim they can act, or can present some video of them that really doesn't show their ability. sure, he could cast them with no audtiton, but it would be a much larger gamble.

music isn't a service job, it's entertainment. just because you think you're entertaining doesn't mean the audience does. a band playing for free isn't an act of charity when the customers leave and the bar loses money. a reputation for having bad bands can really hurt the income of the establishment.

 

[bgressman82]

I've never played an audition for a bar. It's not a matter of my ego, but simply that I have never needed to do it, and I think it would do me more harm than good in the long run because of the effect on my reputation.

The big difference is that I'm a jazz musician, and that's a completely different animal than a rock band. I market myself to bands, not to venues, and my value proposition is simple: You have a gig coming up and you need a bassist. Hire me and you know that everything will be taken care of. In the jazz scene, there is simply no use for an unqualified bassist who is willing to play for free.

Another difference is that jazz bassists mostly share a set of reasonably well defined credentials. A bandleader can ask me a few questions over the phone and get an idea if I'm for real or not. Also, because jazz bassists do a lot of subbing, it's possible to build up a reputation by word of mouth that eliminates the need for an audition.

Note I am not saying jazz is "better" than rock in any way. The things that make it frustrating to earn a wage as a rock player may also be necessary for the vitality and endless renewal of rock music, namely the ability for anybody to pick up a guitar and form a band without extensive formal training. I would also point out that while a sufficiently competent jazz player can start playing paid gigs right away, those gigs will never pay as well as what a good cover band can earn.

yeah dude, this is in no way directed to you jazz guys. the jazz scene is completely different. this is towards mostly cover bands, and to a lesser extent original rock bands.