Onboard/Outboard Pre vs. Clean Boost pedal?

[grue]

Sorry if this is a silly question, but I haven't seen it explained in a way that makes sense to me. I have a couple passive basses, and I dig the tone, but sometimes I would like the clarity and "responsiveness" you get with active basses. I really don't care about the EQ or tone-shaping parts of the pre.

I think I read somewhere that an onboard pre changes the response of the pickups because of the difference in the impedance load, and that this is what accounts for the "active" sound.

Do outboard preamps like Sadowsky and Aguilar have the same effect? Or are they more like a really well-tuned eq pedal? Is there a difference?

And if they do affect the pickups, would a clean booster like an LPB-1 do the same thing, just without the tone shaping?

Thanks!

 

[Munjibunga]

The Aguilar and Sadowsky outboard pres are the same circuit as their onboard pres. They both are fine pieces of kit and would probably do what you're looking for.

 

[pickles]

There is definitely an effect with having a preamp in your bass vs on the floor or in your rack. I see outboards as good tools for doing a little EQ and volume massage ahead of the amp/board (or for using 2 basses on a gig), but that alive feeling is the result of buffering your bass from the effects of your cable.

One easy thing to do if you're using a 20' cable now is to switch to a 12', and make sure the cable is good quality.

Other than that, if you want to hear what a strait gain pre does to a bass, go demo a G&L L2000 or L2500 and see what the difference in tone is between passive and active.

All that said, I'm loving my Aguilar Tone Hammer , and I've always loved my Sadowsky Outboard.

 

[pickles]

The Aguilar and Sadowsky outboard pres are the same circuit as their onboard pres. They both are fine pieces of kit and would probably do what you're looking for.

Actually, the Aguilar Tone Hammmer doesn't seem to be the same as an OBP-3. The highs are at 4k on the hammer and 6.5k on the OBP-3. I like the Hammer a lot better.

 

[Jefenator]

IME a big part of the "passive" vibe is that passive high-impedence tone control, which puts a slight "load" on passive pickups, even when turned all the way up. With any outboard preamp, you still have that passive tone knob in the equation.

Also, the instrument cable would affect a passive signal, at least a tiny bit, before it reaches an outboard preamp.

IME a big part of the "active" vibe is the lack of the passive tone knob and/or cable loading. Usually when people wire in an onboard preamp, they replace the passive tone with the active EQ on the preamp. So the pickups see a little less "load" & feel a little more crisp. This can be good or bad, depending on one's tone goals.

It would be possible to wire an instrument with a passive tone knob that gets bypassed when you switch in the onboard pre (& vice versa). That way you'd really have the best of both worlds. I suspect this isn't done very often because a lot of folks would find it confusing and/or redundant.

 

[grue]

Thanks for the info!

...that alive feeling is the result of buffering your bass from the effects of your cable.

That's kind of what I figured.

One easy thing to do if you're using a 20' cable now is to switch to a 12', and make sure the cable is good quality.

It's worth a try. Is the difference in capacitance between a 20-foot standard cable and 12-foot fancy cable really that audible?

Other than that, if you want to hear what a strait gain pre does to a bass, go demo a G&L L2000 or L2500 and see what the difference in tone is between passive and active.

I definitely have noticed that difference on the G&Ls. I guess that's part of why I thought to ask.

So does anybody make a "buffer only" onboard pre? Or is this something I would have to rig up myself?

 

[grue]

The Aguilar and Sadowsky outboard pres are the same circuit as their onboard pres. They both are fine pieces of kit and would probably do what you're looking for.

Oh definitely. It seems like it might be overkill for me, though, since I'm probably just going to leave the tone settings flat all the time.

 

[grue]

IME a big part of the "active" vibe is the lack of the passive tone knob and/or cable loading.

Got it. Here's a thought: I pretty much keep my tone wide-open at all times. Do you think getting rid of it (or adding a push/pull switch) would have a big effect on the sound of a passive bass?

 

[pickles]

20'-12' cable is audible but not earth shattering. Adds some sparkle.

Lane Poor used to make an incredible onboard buffer-only preamp (dual independent buffers for two pickups), I'm not sure if there are any current offerings. You can always go with something that has EQ and just not use it (though you probably will if its there )

If your bass has a blend knob, going vol-vol will add a lot of top end, so will bypassing the tone control.

 

[walterw]

So does anybody make a "buffer only" onboard pre? Or is this something I would have to rig up myself?

lots of them. search "redeemer" on talkbass for one version.

 

[Jefenator]

Got it. Here's a thought: I pretty much keep my tone wide-open at all times. Do you think getting rid of it (or adding a push/pull switch) would have a big effect on the sound of a passive bass?

Some folks have reported a pretty big difference, just wiring the pickup straight to the jack.

So does anybody make a "buffer only" onboard pre? Or is this something I would have to rig up myself?

Bartolini used to offer such a unit. I think it was intended for piezos but I'll bet it would work great with magnetic pickups as well.

I'm sure there are others but even if you have to cook up your own, that should be about as basic as a project can be.

 

[Munjibunga]

Actually, the Aguilar Tone Hammmer doesn't seem to be the same as an OBP-3. The highs are at 4k on the hammer and 6.5k on the OBP-3. I like the Hammer a lot better.

I was talking about the DB924.

 

[bongomania]

The Redeemer is a great no-frills buffer, very easy to install, great clean "open" sound.

 

[pickles]

I was talking about the DB924.

Ah, that's right. I don't think they make that anymore ...

 

[TonyP-]

Ah, that's right. I don't think they make that anymore ...

They don't make the 924 anymore and regret getting rid of my Tone Hammer.

Interesting discussion...

 

[newbold]

IME a big part of the "passive" vibe is that passive high-impedence tone control, which puts a slight "load" on passive pickups, even when turned all the way up. With any outboard preamp, you still have that passive tone knob in the equation.

Also, the instrument cable would affect a passive signal, at least a tiny bit, before it reaches an outboard preamp.

IME a big part of the "active" vibe is the lack of the passive tone knob and/or cable loading. Usually when people wire in an onboard preamp, they replace the passive tone with the active EQ on the preamp. So the pickups see a little less "load" & feel a little more crisp. This can be good or bad, depending on one's tone goals.

It would be possible to wire an instrument with a passive tone knob that gets bypassed when you switch in the onboard pre (& vice versa). That way you'd really have the best of both worlds. I suspect this isn't done very often because a lot of folks would find it confusing and/or redundant.

Redeemer on/off on a tone push/pull pot?
Would this mostly solve that 'problem'?

 

[bongomania]

Redeemer on/off on a tone push/pull pot?
Would this mostly solve that 'problem'?

That should work, and it should work with any simple buffer. Also there are a few prefab onboard preamps with that functionality built in already.