One way to deal with piracy

[KingPriam]

that's pretty much where I'm at on this. Not to devalue the effort and work that must go into it, but the age of the recording as a product unto itself is coming to an end. Now we are moving into a situation more like donation supported freeware or podcasts. "If you like it, please help support us by clicking here. "

Agreed.

People who see a value in a CD will pay for the CD, whereas people who do not value the CD will pirate it. The ability to make a perfect copy of a musical recording on a CD is available to the majority of people now.

As an interesting thought experiment, ask yourself how many Corvettes would Chevy sell if the ability to make a perfect copy was available to anyone who had $500 to buy a replicating machine? Some people would still pay for the original, but many would not. Although, Porsche makes a profit selling $100,000 hand made cars even though a 10 year old used car will still get you to the grocery store and back.

The solution to piracy is to offer a commodity that people value and are willing to pay for. The communal experience of a live show cannot be pirated. You can't make a perfect copy of the experience of the great concert you saw with your buddies where the band electrified the crowd.

 

[Mooch]

Why cant these Labels and distributors put better copyright protection into the discs/mp3's? You can put a CD from a band into your comp and put a blank cd in and burn it no problem, no copyright protection whatsoever.

You try to do this with a movie no dice. Now you can get around the movie thing but its a little harder. If everyone is so smart with how to pirate something, why doesnt the industry hire some of these people to write copyright protection for them?

Someone will always figure out how to get past it but if you stayed ahead of the hackers with more hackers on your side would make it a pain in the butt for people to steal music, movies, etc.

Someone please chime in on this that knows but little old me sitting here thinks its a viable solution to some of it.

 

[Colin_D]

Why cant these Labels and distributors put better copyright protection into the discs/mp3's? You can put a CD from a band into your comp and put a blank cd in and burn it no problem, no copyright protection whatsoever.

Basically the problem is that this kind of DRM is usually irritating to users, If I buy a CD, I want to be able to rip it to MP3 no problem, so that I can play it on my iPod. I can't imagine that most CDs that are sold today dont get ripped to MP3 within a very short time so that the listener can enjoy the music in a much more convenient format. DRM that keeps you from stripping the music will defeat this, and make your CD less valuable to the consumer.

This is in addition to once it is released it will be a trivial amount of time before any DRM is broken, at that point there will be ripped copies available on the internet without the DRM, and at that point, the DRM will *only* be hindering the people who purchased your music legitimately.

 

[Huge]

Why cant these Labels and distributors put better copyright protection into the discs/mp3's? You can put a CD from a band into your comp and put a blank cd in and burn it no problem, no copyright protection whatsoever.

You try to do this with a movie no dice. Now you can get around the movie thing but its a little harder. If everyone is so smart with how to pirate something, why doesnt the industry hire some of these people to write copyright protection for them?

Someone will always figure out how to get past it but if you stayed ahead of the hackers with more hackers on your side would make it a pain in the butt for people to steal music, movies, etc.

Someone please chime in on this that knows but little old me sitting here thinks its a viable solution to some of it.

This solves no problems, it just continues a cycle.

 

[gricko]

that story has sooooo many layers.....
contemporary music industry business model is rotten on so many levels and that is the reason it is sinking, not digital piracy. copying music existed before internet. taping, trading etc.... and the industry was flourishing.
people got too greedy and lazy at the same time, less work for more money. marketing and promotion is more paid advertising than footwork. for example, the beatles and the stones did not need 128 channel desk and 24 months studio time in the caribbean to produce mediocre recordings. people were shipping genius works every year on mono equipment.
listen to bob marley and the wailers old grey whistle test live recording. that's skill.
that is one thing.

the other one is - how many performers are touring today and why so few? that's a sword w/ two blades.
- you do not tour = you do not promote. records are flyers for gigs. [© boon&watt]
- bumped up gig price tickets = smaller audience.

 

[dystopiate]

that story has sooooo many layers.....
contemporary music industry business model is rotten on so many levels and that is the reason it is sinking, not digital piracy. copying music existed before internet. taping, trading etc.... and the industry was flourishing.
people got too greedy and lazy at the same time, less work for more money. marketing and promotion is more paid advertising than footwork. for example, the beatles and the stones did not need 128 channel desk and 24 months studio time in the caribbean to produce mediocre recordings. people were shipping genius works every year on mono equipment.
listen to bob marley and the wailers old grey whistle test live recording. that's skill.
that is one thing.

the other one is - how many performers are touring today and why so few? that's a sword w/ two blades.
- you do not tour = you do not promote. records are flyers for gigs. [© boon&watt]
- bumped up gig price tickets = smaller audience.

Dubbing a tape took time. Digital downloading barely takes any time and runs in the background. You used to have know someone who had the album, now you just need an internet connection. The two aren't comparable in the least. In your post you blame the *quality* of music. I've been around the country, and the quality is high. Really high... you're just not hearing it because it never gets to you. I can honestly say that I like about 5% of commercial music I hear (1 in 20 songs). This is just as true today as it was when I was a kid. This is true of older music that I hear. This is true of the classical music I grew up playing. You're associating older music with better music either because you're hearing stuff that has endured the test of time and/or you're nostalgic for another era. The artists you reference were using the state of the art at the time. The same is true today. It's not the music that's gotten worse, it's the state of the industry -- it's suffering, so it takes fewer risks and spends less time, effort, and money -- both the artist and listener suffer for it.

The other point you made is about touring. There are tons of bands touring. Tons. Records are not fliers for gigs. Anyone who thinks that is losing money or is pontificating from an armchair. The idea that people aren't going to shows because of increased ticket prices is also fallacious. The price to see a band at the mid-level (1000-5000 seaters) has stayed level or gone down over the last 20 years when adjusted for inflation. It was $10 to see local bands when I was a kid, it's $10 today (when adjusted for inflation that's almost a 60% price reduction). Only the price of the big time acts has gone up, and guess what? They're still selling stadiums, and to the same people who have seen them time and time again, purchased their albums, and spent money on merch.

It's only the new music that's being hurt by the illegal downloading, and it's being hurt big-time. I know great bands no one has ever heard of who struggled, put out great albums, and gave everything so they could make music. I believe that in a different time they would have been successful. Illegal downloading is here to stay. I get that and I'm not arguing about it, but those who think that downloading isn't a big deal or isn't THE PRIMARY REASON there is less good music making it's way around is living in an internet lie. Even worse is the belief that this is good for the artist. Talk to an artist who makes his living on it. It's not good for the artist.

Something has to change, until then the artists are going to continue to fold, their music never having been heard.

 

[dystopiate]

Why cant these Labels and distributors put better copyright protection into the discs/mp3's? You can put a CD from a band into your comp and put a blank cd in and burn it no problem, no copyright protection whatsoever.

You try to do this with a movie no dice. Now you can get around the movie thing but its a little harder. If everyone is so smart with how to pirate something, why doesnt the industry hire some of these people to write copyright protection for them?

Someone will always figure out how to get past it but if you stayed ahead of the hackers with more hackers on your side would make it a pain in the butt for people to steal music, movies, etc.

Someone please chime in on this that knows but little old me sitting here thinks its a viable solution to some of it.

I actually think you're onto something, but not about CDs. I think that when CDs are finally outdated (some people seem to think they are, but the CD portion still represented something like a billion per year in the industry and still outpaces legal downloads by a little bit), if the big labels are still around, they're exclusively stream music. Mp3s will cease to exist. Hackers will create ways to rip mp3s in spite of new security for streams, and the stream will be pulled until better security is in place. I think it will become a fortress and the listeners' options will be reduced to flipping through youtube or some sort of jango.com for independent bands, or listening to streams the direct from labels (and before anyone tells me that the indy stream will be better, go to some local shows in your area, then turn on the radio. The indy stream will NOT be better).

Initially this will still suck for everyone, but will be much better for labels and artists down the road. Buyers won't get to own any music. It will be a rental only situation.... well, really more an all-you-can-eat buffet. Eventually, the artists will make more money, so the labels will make more money, so they'll be capable of spending more to develop better art, and only then will the listener get more. I'm sure everyone will still complain, but it'll be better.

At least that's my utopian dream for my future musician child (just kidding... I'm not gonna let my kids near any instruments lest they go down the path I did!).

 

[NateS]

Why cant these Labels and distributors put better copyright protection into the discs/mp3's? You can put a CD from a band into your comp and put a blank cd in and burn it no problem, no copyright protection whatsoever.

You try to do this with a movie no dice. Now you can get around the movie thing but its a little harder. If everyone is so smart with how to pirate something, why doesnt the industry hire some of these people to write copyright protection for them?

Someone will always figure out how to get past it but if you stayed ahead of the hackers with more hackers on your side would make it a pain in the butt for people to steal music, movies, etc.

Someone please chime in on this that knows but little old me sitting here thinks its a viable solution to some of it.

This has been done before. I remember a few cds from the mid nineties that you couldn't rip into a computer. That's a reason you don't see them anymore: nobody would buy them, and they were a pain. DRM only hutt people with legitimate copies, of anything. Video games, music, computer programs, movies, etc. are only hindered by DRM. The goal should be to make it worth my time to pay for it, and I do when it is. Otherwise, no thanks - I have bills to pay.

 

[NateS]

At least that's my utopian dream for my future musician child (just kidding... I'm not gonna let my kids near any instruments lest they go down the path I did!).

You mean distopian, right? I'll stick to owning music, thank you very much, If I'm going to pay for it.

 

[NateS]

Something has to change, until then the artists are going to continue to fold, their music never having been heard.

I can't think of any bands that have broken up because not enough people are buying their records. If so, then they should have thought more about the music and less about the sales...

 

[dystopiate]

I can't think of any bands that have broken up because not enough people are buying their records. If so, then they should have thought more about the music and less about the sales...

I can think of plenty. Often the problem is how much more they think about the music than the sales.

Music is an expensive and difficult habit to keep up, especially if you want to do more than local shows for some friends and a handful of fans.

The pro musician is in a very different situation than the hobbyist.

 

[Huge]

I actually think you're onto something, but not about CDs. I think that when CDs are finally outdated (some people seem to think they are, but the CD portion still represented something like a billion per year in the industry and still outpaces legal downloads by a little bit), if the big labels are still around, they're exclusively stream music. Mp3s will cease to exist. Hackers will create ways to rip mp3s in spite of new security for streams, and the stream will be pulled until better security is in place. I think it will become a fortress and the listeners' options will be reduced to flipping through youtube or some sort of jango.com for independent bands, or listening to streams the direct from labels (and before anyone tells me that the indy stream will be better, go to some local shows in your area, then turn on the radio. The indy stream will NOT be better).

Initially this will still suck for everyone, but will be much better for labels and artists down the road. Buyers won't get to own any music. It will be a rental only situation.... well, really more an all-you-can-eat buffet. Eventually, the artists will make more money, so the labels will make more money, so they'll be capable of spending more to develop better art, and only then will the listener get more. I'm sure everyone will still complain, but it'll be better.

At least that's my utopian dream for my future musician child (just kidding... I'm not gonna let my kids near any instruments lest they go down the path I did!).

I'd like to know the name of your band so that I never accidentally buy music from someone who cares so little for consumers of his or her product.

Artists have made beautiful art with little or no resources in the past and will continue to do so in the future. More money doesn't mean better music. While I wish that all musicians can make a living wage from they're chosen profession, I will not let them profit from me by restricting my freedoms as a consumer.

 

[dystopiate]

You mean distopian, right? I'll stick to owning music, thank you very much, If I'm going to pay for it.

You're kind of missing the point about artists being able to make music and what I said about it sucking for everyone at first. Anyhow, if I'm right, ownership won't be an option.

 

[dystopiate]

I'd like to know the name of your band so that I never accidentally buy music from someone who cares so little for consumers of his or her product.

Artists have made beautiful art with little or no resources in the past and will continue to do so in the future. More money doesn't mean better music. While I wish that all musicians can make a living wage from they're chosen profession, I will not let them profit from me by restricting my freedoms as a consumer.

Sheeesh. My point is that I think that this is what it's headed toward, not that it's an ideal situation, but thanks for saying I don't care about my fans and deriding me.

The labels won't be able to keep cutting corners and they'll turn to technology to protect their investment. Massive illegal downloading will push them stop making physical products that people own & copy. You will still be able to have convenient access to music you want to hear, but you won't be given a chance to make a copy. Your "freedoms as a consumer" (which freedoms exactly?) will be to buy in or get no music. That's what I'm saying. I'm also saying that this will eventually benefit the artist, which eventually benefits the fans, even if it's not perfect.

I'll say this again: talk to a professional artist sometime. Talk to them about what they make art-wise when they're struggling to eat vs when they don't have to worry about it.

 

[NateS]

You're kind of missing the point about artists being able to make music and what I said about it sucking for everyone at first. Anyhow, if I'm right, ownership won't be an option.

I can make music. I don't consider it my hobby, I consider it my life. Interesting that your belief is that I don't exist.

 

[Alucard817]

Why cant these Labels and distributors put better copyright protection into the discs/mp3's? You can put a CD from a band into your comp and put a blank cd in and burn it no problem, no copyright protection whatsoever.

You try to do this with a movie no dice. Now you can get around the movie thing but its a little harder. If everyone is so smart with how to pirate something, why doesnt the industry hire some of these people to write copyright protection for them?

Someone will always figure out how to get past it but if you stayed ahead of the hackers with more hackers on your side would make it a pain in the butt for people to steal music, movies, etc.

Someone please chime in on this that knows but little old me sitting here thinks its a viable solution to some of it.

Ok time for an actual pirate to chime in, BTW I download all of my music, movies, games and software. hell the version of Windows7 Ultimate on this PC is even pirated.

That music industry has tried what you suggested, the problems were that the DRM (digital rights media) that was downloaded and installed on the PC, ipod or whatever was actually RUINING the devices. The DRM was opening security holes (big ones) in PC's in some cases the DRM literally broke the operating system, in most of the cases you had to format and completely reinstall. In the cases of MP3 players it would brick them (basically make it into an expensive paper weight) or at the least cause lock ups cause serious security issues and so on.

Needless to say this pissed people off, sony got sued and recalled every CD that had the DRM on it. Since this fiasco left a bad taste in everyones mouths People simply refused to buy CD's.

I won't go into a long tirade about why I pirate, mainly because no one here really cares, but to be honest the day of the RIAA dinosaur is nearing the end. with a decent PC and relatively inexpensive recording gear you can do everything needed to cut a CD right on your pc.

Don't get me started on the stupid idiotic F****** lawsuits.

 

[NateS]

Ok time for an actual pirate to chime in, BTW I download all of my music, movies, games and software. hell the version of Windows7 Ultimate on this PC is even pirated.

That music industry has tried what you suggested, the problems were that the DRM (digital rights media) that was downloaded and installed on the PC, ipod or whatever was actually RUINING the devices. The DRM was opening security holes (big ones) in PC's in some cases the DRM literally broke the operating system, in most of the cases you had to format and completely reinstall. In the cases of MP3 players it would brick them (basically make it into an expensive paper weight) or at the least cause lock ups cause serious security issues and so on.

Needless to say this pissed people off, sony got sued and recalled every CD that had the DRM on it. Since this fiasco left a bad taste in everyones mouths People simply refused to buy CD's.

I won't go into a long tirade about why I pirate, mainly because no one here really cares, but to be honest the day of the RIAA dinosaur is nearing the end. with a decent PC and relatively inexpensive recording gear you can do everything needed to cut a CD right on your pc.

Don't get me started on the stupid idiotic F****** lawsuits.

What he said. The first paragraph applies to me as well.

 

[dystopiate]

I can make music. I don't consider it my hobby, I consider it my life. Interesting that your belief is that I don't exist.

I was using the "artist" in the sense of "professional". I can call myself an accountant because I do my own taxes, I can even be super-duper passionate about it and say that I just live to do taxes, but I'm not a pro.

 

[NateS]

I was using the "artist" in the sense of "professional". I can call myself an accountant because I do my own taxes, I can even be super-duper passionate about it and say that I just live to do taxes, but I'm not a pro.

and have you ever thought that the hundreds of years before this century, that wasn't the case?

being a "rock star" is dead. and good riddance, if you ask me. musicians, and "artists", have always had to work for their food. i'm glad you have your bentley and gold swimming pools, i'll continue to call myself an artist.

 

[dystopiate]

and have you ever thought that the hundreds of years before this century, that wasn't the case?

being a "rock star" is dead. and good riddance, if you ask me. musicians, and "artists", have always had to work for their food. i'm glad you have your bentley and gold swimming pools, i'll continue to call myself an artist.

Actually, throughout the last few centuries artists have made their money from their art, so I'm not sure what your point is.

Plenty of people engage in an artform without being an artist in a professional sense. I spent years playing music before I became a musician.

You're conflating being a professional artist with having lavish wealth. I never once said anything about rockstardom -- in fact, you're the first to bring it up in this entire thread.