Ongoing Interface Issues

[DirtDog]

TL;DR - I should have never sold my MOTU interface.


OK, having got that out of the way, I find myself stuck amongst a bunch of compromise solutions for my audio interface requirements.

After I got rid of my MOTU (828MKIII), I was looking for something simpler and more desktop friendly...with 2 headphone jacks for collaborative efforts. So IO and form factor were important considerations. As was budget.

I started with the Focusrite Scarlett 6i6 (2nd gen). That was working OK for a while, but I wasn't crazy about the form factor or having a bunch of cables coming out the front of the box - it was cluttering up my desktop. I wasn't entirely satisfied with that setup.

At around the same time, the SSL 2+ hit the market. It had the right IO, form factor and two headphone jacks. So I bought that and switched away from the Focusrite. Concurrently, I bought a set of Sennheiser HD600 headphones to that I could get a flatter response for mixing (compared to my old A-T M50X headphones, anyways). That setup was OK. Easy to use, good signal in. But the headphone jack wasn't hot enough to power the headphones adequately. The impedance of the output of this interface is WAY less than the impedance of the headphones (<1 Ohm vs 300 Ohms). So, even if I cranked the headphone gain, it was like it was stuck going as loud as "3". Not satisfied.

Fast forward to last week. I ordered and received the Mackie Big Knob Studio (after ensuring that the headphone impedance would work with my HD600). IO, check. Form factor, check. Budget, check. Headphone volume, check. Mic input, not check. I figured going with some NOT USB powered would help with the headhphone issue (and it does seem to) but now compromised by the internal mic preamp gain. Phantom power was correctly applied.

I run an E-V RE20 as my main mic. I know these are low gain mics. With both the Focusrite and the SSL, I'd have to crank the input gain, but I could get an acceptable level at "9". Yes, phantom power is engaged as is required by these mics. With the Mackie, I can't get the input gain to anywhere near a useable level for this mic. Man oh man.

So, I've gone through three different reasonably priced interfaces, each with most of the features I want, but each with one glaring non-negotiable issue. I have a good chunk of change invested in both the RE20 mic and the HD600 headphones and just about the same amount invested in three different interfaces.

I know that if I used a dynamic mic and/or go back to my old A-T headphones, I'd eliminate any and all of these problems with any of these three interfaces. I also know that running either an external mic pre and/or an external headphone amp would solve these problems. But would rather not have yet another thing cluttering up my desktop.

Rather than buy another door stop interface and/or other additional external devices, is there an interface out there that has a decent, uncluttered desktop friendly form factor, has decent IO, enough preamp gain, has good impedance match with my HD600 headphones and would cost between $500 and $1000?

The final constraint is USB or FireWire. I'm primarily using an interface this with my older iMac desktop. I would love the UA Apollo (Solo or Twin MkIII), but don't have the USB 3/Thunderbolt capability.

Out of the three, I prefer the SSL2+ and might consider a separate headphone amp. That would solve most of my issues even though I have to crank the preamp gain to use the RE-20. It's not terrible, just little margin for headroom before distortion. Second choice would be the Mackie with an external mic pre. These would be the "don't throw the baby out with the bathwater" option, but still is not ideal.

But is anyone aware of any other all-in-one box options???? I have spent countless hours looking around and researching but nothing is popping out to me as from adding an external box (mic pre or headphone amp).

 

[silky smoove]

I run an E-V RE20 as my main mic. I know these are low gain mics. With both the Focusrite and the SSL, I'd have to crank the input gain, but I could get an acceptable level at "9". Yes, phantom power is engaged as is required by these mics.

I’ve got more thoughts on your larger post that I’ll respond with when I get back from the grocery store (yay responsibilities, haha), but I wanted to address this. The RE20 is a dynamic mic and does not require phantom power.

more to come...

 

[silky smoove]

I run an E-V RE20 as my main mic. I know these are low gain mics.

You can add a Triton Fethead or a Cloudlifter to the signal path and get some free gain. That is one more thing to buy and connect.

I know that if I used a dynamic mic

The RE20 is dynamic. Do you mean using a condenser?

Rather than buy another door stop interface and/or other additional external devices, is there an interface out there that has a decent, uncluttered desktop friendly form factor, has decent IO, enough preamp gain, has good impedance match with my HD600 headphones and would cost between $500 and $1000?

In my experience the unfortunate answer is no. Modern consumer and prosumer interfaces are incredible values, but they fall flat with preamp gain on “hungry” mics. I’ve never found one that performs well. For my SM7B, which is similar to your RE20, I find that a preamp with 60-70db I’d clean gain is a big advantage in terms of not cranking the gain to the point of self noise and still getting adequate signal across the converters.

The final constraint is USB or FireWire.

FireWire is dead. It’s no longer supported in any real capacity by anyone. Leave it in the past is my advice. It’s better than USB2, but the performance gains only come with high track counts, which you’re not using on a two channel interface.

But is anyone aware of any other all-in-one box options????

For use with an RE20 and picky headphones, the answer in my experience is no. I’ve not tried everything out there though. My advice is to get an external preamp and a nice converter. For just two channels it might push your budget a little, but hopefully not too much.

 

[silky smoove]

Well... thinking on it for a little longer. I’d say that if you can find a good compromise on one of those interfaces and your headphones, then add a Cloudlifter Z and you should be in good shape. Get the Z model so you can adjust the impedance the mic sees. The fixed ones will open up the top end and make the RE20 more condenser-like. That’s cool, but sometimes you don’t want that top end. Dial up the impedance and you’ll be back at the same mic tone but without having to crank your interface gain all the way up.

 

[DirtDog]

Well... thinking on it for a little longer. I’d say that if you can find a good compromise on one of those interfaces and your headphones, then add a Cloudlifter Z and you should be in good shape. Get the Z model so you can adjust the impedance the mic sees. The fixed ones will open up the top end and make the RE20 more condenser-like. That’s cool, but sometimes you don’t want that top end. Dial up the impedance and you’ll be back at the same mic tone but without having to crank your interface gain all the way up.

Thanks silky.

Yes, I had a brain fart re the RE-20 being dynamic not condenser. What I was thinking of is an SM58 that doesn’t need as much preamp gain.

The Cloudlifter has been on my radar and seems like a good solution without adding too much clutter. Thanks for the intel on the Z model. I do prefer a “smoother” sounding mic with less top end zing....I have a couple of decent large diaphragm condenser but end up having to EQ the crap out them to get something that I like.

Given the low likelihood of an all in one box solution, I’m going to have to compromise on the clutter side of things to stay in budget. Cloudlifter is a good contender.

now for the price of a Cloudlifter Z, I wonder if a channel strip like mic preamp is a more versatile option? Channel strip as in gain, EQ and maybe compressor?

I recently made a comment in a thread here that this gives me an excuse to get into the 500-series stuff. But a preamp module, a headphone amp module and a lunchbox gobbles up that $1K rather quickly. And I get away from my “no clutter” requirement....although that’s a soft requirement anyways.

 

[And I]

+1 on the cloudlifter. I use one with my SM7b (large diaphragm dynamic) and my ribbon mics. Makes the stock pre's in my pro-sumer audio interface not have to work so hard to get enough output from these types of low-output mics.

 

[silky smoove]

The question for me would be whether or not the mic preamp gain solution would be enough if you still have to compromise on the headphones.

 

[DirtDog]

The question for me would be whether or not the mic preamp gain solution would be enough if you still have to compromise on the headphones.

Yep, that's a good question. The Mackie definitely has more juice for the headphones compared to the SSL. However, I noticed that I set the SSL to 50-50 between the direct monitoring and the USB monitoring (I left it there and didn't change it). When I go 100% USB, I get more volume in the headphones. Duh. Good enough to keep from blowing out my hearing. If I need more direct monitoring, I can change that easily. I'd say 95% of the time I'm using USB monitoring anyways.

I ordered and shall receive today the Cloudlifter. I opted for the CL-1, partly on price and partly on a number of online video reviews. While I *might* miss the functionality that the Z model offers, I couldn't justify the additional cost. I also didn't want to have to set up this unit in a spot where I needed access to the control. I plan to tuck the CL-1 in behind my interface and just leave it largely out of sight. The Cloudlifter Z was 3-4 weeks before being in stock at my online retailer of choice. Even Amazon was weeks away from having any in stock.

One of my use cases include using this mic/interface/headphone setup for videoconferencing for work (and band collaboration). For some reason with the Mackie, I had to press a bunch of buttons to allow me to use it for this use case and then change the buttons back to prior settings for use in the recording/tracking/playing use case. Argh. The SSL is much simpler in this regard. So, the Mackie will be returned and I'll stick with the SSL.

So, I think I'll have the input issue nicely resolved and can live with the output issue (not as big an issue as it was when I first posted). And I can keep with my budget/streamlining requirements quite nicely.

Interestingly enough, the SSL has seemingly (to my ears) a bit more input preamp gain to work with than the Mackie - despite the latter being DC powered vs the USB powered SSL. I took a look at the specs for both devices, but the manufacturers use different units to measure this gain. The comparisons are Greek to me!

Thanks for all the input and suggestions!

 

[silky smoove]

The Cloudlifter is a great unit. It should serve you well. If it doesn’t, another option to consider is the Triton Audio Fethead, which is what I use if I need to open up the top end on my SM7B, or use it on a SUPER quiet vocalist. Be careful with the input gain though. My current preamps (Line Audio 8MP) can clip pretty easily with the Fethead in front of them due to the cascading gain of one preamp being fed into a second preamp with plenty of gain on tap. Last night I tried the SM7B on a snare top, and in an attempt to get more top end out of it without getting all the way into condenser territory, I added the Fethead. On this particularly loud snare (Mapex Black Panther Wraith) I was clipping the 8MP (downstream of the Fethead) even with the pad engaged and the gain way down. I wasn’t clipping the converter that followed the preamp, just the preamp itself. That type of clipping is a different sound that isn’t always a bad thing, but definitely something to be aware of even running multiple pres in series like this. Use your ears and you’ll be fine.

 

[DirkP]

Some (not-bus powered) interfaces have enough juice for the HD600. My Tascam Model 12, my SPL Crimson, my SSL SiX all have enough power. Depends a bit on the volume you need. Presonus builds a very decent headphone amp for < 100,- that has enourmous power and can be used as a kind of poor man's monitor controler, too. The HP4. Even works with my older 600 ohm headphones.
Some interfaces have mic-preamps with 60 or even 70 db like, for example, the Arturia Audiofuse studio. Very interesting interface IMHO. Due to the podcast and streaming rage during the pandemic, even 200,- devices like the small podtrak from Zoom have 70 db preamps. A lot of podcasters use powerhungry large dynamics like the SM7b from Shure or the EV RE20.
Specs of the Arturia:
Phones
• designed for phones impedance from 32 Ohms to 600 Ohms

• Maximum output level: +13dBu on 6.35mm TRS, +10dBu on 3.5mm TRS

• Dynamic range: 103dB (A-weighted)

• THD+N: -92dB (A-weighted)

Microphone Preamps
• Input impedance: 3.4kΩ

• Maximum input level: +11dBu

• Gain range: 71 dB typical

• Boost mode : +10dB ; Pad mode : -20dB

• Frequency response 20Hz to 20kHz: < +/- 0,09 dB

• Equivalent Input Noise (EIN): -129dBu typical (un-weighted)

• Dynamic range: 118dB (A-weighted)

• THD+N: -107dB (A-weighted)

Should be enough for both the HD600 and your EV RE 20 mic.
I had an eye on it, but its release was postponed and I bought a SSL SiX and later a Tascam Model 12 instead.

 

[DirtDog]

Been using the Cloudlifter for a few days now. I'm happy with it...gives me just a bit more range on the input gain control on the interface.

I seem to have resolved my headphone issue as well - by NOT keeping the SSL2+ monitor control 50/50 between Input and USB.

All's well that ends well!

I still don't know why I had originally thought the RE-20 needed phantom power! D'oh.

 

[silky smoove]

Glad to hear it’s working!

 

[DirtDog]

Well, back to looking at other options. I'm very satisfied with the SSL2+ I picked up before the pandemic and the Cloudlifter has been a great addition.

BUT..... (there's always a but isn't there), I need more inputs.

I have a Presonus 16R in my band rehearsal/recording spot. Got that wired up with a multi-channel headphone amp and power supply and dedicated wiring harness. Great mobile rig. Used it a handful of times before pandemic/lockdowns laying down tracks two different band and a couple of solo artists. Haven't seen that rig since March as it's located in another province (band members live on both sides of the Ontario/Quebec border, we're not too far apart, but it sounds more dramatic).

Anyways, at home, my workflow is such that I've been constantly plugging and unplugging mics, guitars and my synth any time I want to record a track with the SSL2+. My desk comes to be an unholy mess about an hour into the process. I'm not totally OCD, but OCD enough that this irks me to no end. At the end of a session, I have wires and cable everywhere, I've moved my monitor and interface a half dozen times (to get to the inputs on the interface). I thought about bringing my mobile rig back from the recording space, but that rig is overkill for my home use (and the Presonus 16R mixer controls are all "in the box", no manual controls).

So, I started shopping again.

Minimum 4 inputs, 6 or 8 would be better; combi jack inputs on the back preferred, some sort of analog gain/monitor level control/metering on the front. Desktop unit preferred but rack mounted is OK too. USB2/USBC connectivity so I can use it with both my older iMac and my newer MBP. Looked at all my usual suspects - UA, Focusrite, MOTU, Presonus at various price points and form factors.

Went with the 1U Presonus 1824C. I'll permanently wire in two mics (one dynamic, one condenser) as well as my guitar and bass preamp units AND my synth (Arturia MiniBrute 2) into the rear inputs (3, 4, 5, 6 and 7) and leave the two front inputs (1, 2) empty. That way I have everything setup and ready to go so I don't need to deal with cable management but also leave some flexibility to go direct instrument input and bypass the bass/guitar preamps when I choose to. I don't record live drums in my space, so no need for extra inputs for that.

Were there better options at that price point? Perhaps. I have a bunch of Presonus stuff now that I'm fairly pleased with (Presonus Faderport 8, the 16R and an older SL16.4.2 mixer) and I like their software implementations, so Presonus was an easy sell to me. MOTU is good stuff, but I constantly battled with their CueMix software. Didn't know what I might be getting myself into with UA. At least Presonus is the devil that I know.

Will be delivered this afternoon. Can't wait to spend this evening rewiring my setup, getting my desktop uncluttered again so I can go back to being creative. This should keep me going for the next couple of years - but maybe check back in with me in a few months!

I checked the specs - my headphones should work just fine with this unit! LOL!

 

[DirtDog]

Before...

After....

 

[DirtDog]

Loving this new interface. It’s apparently got 80db of input gain range on each channel (-15db to +65db). My SM7B signal has decent balls, moreso with the Cloudlifter. And the headphone out has more power than I need.

I had a moment of panic when I realized there was no direct monitoring capability built into the hardware and UC software for this unit. Was getting a healthy dose of latency echo when trying to lay down tracks in Logic. Apparently in Studio One there’s a simple way to enable direct monitoring (two ways, actually) but it took a little bit of futzing around in Logic to figure out how to do this.

Essentially, direct monitoring is always there. it’s the software monitoring that needs to be turned off (in Logic, anyways) when tracking. Not the most convenient thing, but workable. May spend a bit of time getting to know Studio One better.

 

[silky smoove]

In Logic just go to Preferences > Audio and uncheck the software monitoring box. It’s a preference, not a setting, so you only have to do it once. After that you can switch your interface to input monitoring and then you’ll only have the system latency of your interface, which should be well below the level of human perception.

it’s also worth using Logic’s IO plug-in to do a physical loopback test to calculate the recording latency offset (measured in samples) for all of the sample rates your interface is capable of.

 

[DirtDog]

In Logic just go to Preferences > Audio and uncheck the software monitoring box. It’s a preference, not a setting, so you only have to do it once. After that you can switch your interface to input monitoring and then you’ll only have the system latency of your interface, which should be well below the level of human perception.

it’s also worth using Logic’s IO plug-in to do a physical loopback test to calculate the recording latency offset (measured in samples) for all of the sample rates your interface is capable of.

Thanks...yes, I had forgotten about that.

There's also a setting in UC to "bypass mixer" where you only hear the effected input signal in Logic and bypass that problem. Problem is, when you set "bypass mixer" and forget to set it back, the mic/interface doesn't work with Zoom, etc! Had a couple of conference calls go sideways.

I'm trainable - it just takes time!