Only $2,000 to improve your amp's performance

[Queg]

LOL, OK, but if you're going to point fingers at others' supposed logical contradictions, why shouldn't people point at your actual logical contradictions?

And no, you are not addressing a real contradiction. The first logical contradiction I pointed to in your post is actually more real than the one you claim to find in this thread. There is no substantive contradiction in what the expert members of the forum have been saying. I would invite you to point to some such contradictions, if you can.

Come on, really?

This was posted by ehque:
"There is no way a cable could do better... "

Which is very different from saying: "there's no way a cable could do anything.."

Of course it's possible he didn't mean it the way I read it. Or he has a more reasonable position then the "absolutely not!" crowd..?

 

[lomo]

This thread has descended into the realm of the absurd. Someone is offering a 2 comma prize for the ability to tell the difference and nobody has done it. That should speak inumerable volumes. It can be properly and objectively tested but has not been. The claims do not hold intellectual water with anyone (outside the company) who has electrical engineering expertise.



But the ad tells a good story.

I await some objective, logical reason to believe the claims.

 

[Bluesy Soul]

Sorry for my bad use of English.

Maybe... "Science is not an absolute. It is a tool to uncover facts from which their use is pertinent to the specific paradigm from which they were obtained."

Better?

Something tells me no...

"Science is a tool for discovering and confirming facts that are pertinent to the paradigm from which they are obtained" is better yet; but you are right. It's still "no". I don't know whether it continues to capture every nuance of your original intent and, more importantly, it still lacks a certain brevity and elegance required to lure me under an electric ink pen.

Frankly, I find your position in this matter to be pretty inane; but I do appreciate your resilience and sense of humor.

 

[AllenBass7]

Christ! What's it made of? ...Braided Unicorn hairs???

 

[Bluesy Soul]

And what exactly is my position?

LOL! Sorry, I'll not be lured into your contrarian game that easily.

And I assume you meant to ask: "And what is my position exactly, in your opinion?"

 

[johnk_10]

i know what my 'position' would be if i ever bought one- 'bent over'.

 

[SpamBot]

i know what my 'position' would be if i ever bought one- 'bent over'.

Bu-dump bat

 

[B-string]

I hope someone CAN post results of a blind test before the mods. close the thread?

 

[Hagelslag]

This thread has been a time vampire.

 

[tdogg]

This thread has been a time vampire.

i just saw this thread pop up on the main page and thought "wow that thread hasnt been closed by a mod yet?"

 

[fdeck]

Okay, here's another answer: it's all factually inaccurate. Is that more acceptable?

I would go further. While I have not read this particular white paper with any care, I have been asked to comment on articles from other cable vendors. My reaction is generally that audiophile ad copy is neither accurate nor inaccurate, but is simply nonsense.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonsense

Nonsense is text that is grammatically correct, but which is meaningless. "Pseudo-technical" text uses technical jargon, but makes no technical sense. A layperson might read that text and conclude that it is plausible, or even convincing. A believer might feel that the text confirms their personal experiences. Then an expert reads it and dismisses it as nonsense. Such text is immune from critique. What seems like an open-and-shut case to the techie, comes across as a hasty and arbitrary dismissal to the layperson. Maybe this is why we techies come across as dismissive and absolutist.

But now, why would a cable vendor choose to describe a product in pseudo-technical terms, and not pseudo-magical terms? For instance, consider two possible explanations for the cable effect:

1. Having 8 skinny wires is better than 2 thick wires because of the skin effect.

2. Having 8 skinny wires is better than 2 thick wires because there are 8 planets.

Does one explanation seem more plausible than the other? If so, why? I think that most of us -- believer and skeptic alike -- would prefer to believe that an effect has a physical cause, not a magical or psychological one.

 

[Limeman]

"Science is a tool for discovering and confirming facts that are pertinent to the paradigm from which they are obtained" is better yet; but you are right. It's still "no". I don't know whether it continues to capture every nuance of your original intent and, more importantly, it still lacks a certain brevity and elegance required to lure me under an electric ink pen.

Frankly, I find your position in this matter to be pretty inane; but I do appreciate your resilience and sense of humor.

And what exactly is my position? Ah never mind... this has indeed become pointless.

In essence I have two groups of experts: One which contains some of the top bassist in my profession (Victor Wooten, Adam Nitti, Derrick Murdock, etc. - heck, even Elliot Easton from The Cars - no slouch guitarist) as well as over 20 professional reviews from folks who make their living with their ears, and the other group which contains at least one high-level engineer - Bob Lee from QSC - (and possibly more) who stand at opposite ends of the spectrum towards of the value of said product. One group has actually used the cable. From what I can tell, the other group has not. The one that has used it says there is a difference. The group that has not, says "snake-oil". Due to these facts, I'd say both parties opinions remain questionable.

The cable just showed up at my home not 20 minutes ago. Looks like it cost at least $25! So I will schedule time with my friend at his studio to see if we can determine what, if anything at all, this product does to the sound through both a pro bass rig (Aguilar/Mesa/Sadowsky/Fbass) and pro monitors (Myers HD-1s + ProTools through a top-of-the-line DigiDesign board). If we can determine a meaningful difference (no matter how small), I will make sure to post it online so all can decide for themselves. I have nothing to prove or loose here. I just want to know for myself. If anyone has some good ideas on how I can construct a solid testing methodology, please PM me.

While I greatly acknowledge, and have put on full display in this thread my own shortcomings in terms of physics and electrical engineering, others have showcased their own rigidity and an unfortunate willingness to disparage both the viewpoint as well as the holder of that viewpoint. Regardless, I have tried to roll with the punches and have, for the most part, really had fun interacting with all of you. Thanks! Results to follow soon...

Cheers!

 

[lomo]

I am truly looking forward to some results, along with an explanation of methodology. But I stiill wish to know WHY VICTA (or someone.....anyone) HASN'T ABSCONDED WITH THE MILLION RUBLES?????
Doesn't that make you doubt?

 

[Lukejt]

Sounds cool Lineman. Do you have a heavy gage el-cheapo cord? Be nice to keep the cord comparison close by using a 14 or even a 12 gage cord.

The guy does have a well put together web site with lots of comments from bass players. He's an excellent salesman. I just can't wrap my head around how the cord allows the "current" to move faster.

My wife and I purchased a used BMW last year. The last guy in the stage of managers and a-holes was the most amazing salesperson I've ever seen. Kinda reminds me of him when I look at that web site and watch the Youtube vids.

 

[Richard Lindsey]

Come on, really?

This was posted by ehque:
"There is no way a cable could do better... "

Which is very different from saying: "there's no way a cable could do anything.."

Of course it's possible he didn't mean it the way I read it. Or he has a more reasonable position then the "absolutely not!" crowd..?

Yes, really. No, what you describe is not a contradiction. I think you're conflating two things here: (1) whether a cable could do anything at all of any description to anything whatsoever, and (2) whether, if a cable does do anything, that anything could specifically affect the audio output of an amplifier in any audible way. Those are two very different things. What's causing your confusion, i think, is that it's quite possible to be somewhat agnostic about or not especially interested in #1 yet nevertheless deeply convinced that #2 is extremely unlikely. That's not a contradiction, it's a principled distinction.

ehque's comment about a cable not being able to do "better," if you refer to its actual context, had nothing at all to do with #2, that is, with whether the cable could affect the sound for the better. It had to do with the possibility of a cable's being made in such a way as to act as a filter (#1). In the same post, he explained why that is highly unlikely to matter in terms of #2 even if the cable were so made; cf the steamroller and tar analogy. Again, no contradiction; it only looks like one if you're not following the explanation all the way.

 

[Kelly Lee]

...before the mods. close the thread?

 

[B-string]

These guys are getting a little rough at times, just tried to provide a little reminder?

 

[anonymous02282011]

i know what my 'position' would be if i ever bought one- 'bent over'.

hilarious

 

[Kelly Lee]

These guys are getting a little rough at times, just tried to provide a little reminder?

 

[SMASH]

In essence I have two groups of experts: One which contains some of the top bassist in my profession (Victor Wooten, Adam Nitti, Derrick Murdock, etc. - heck, even Elliot Easton from The Cars - no slouch guitarist) as well as over 20 professional reviews from folks who make their living with their ears, ...

Experts in what? Getting free gear? Shovelling ####? This is the kind of hokum ESP is counting on the gullible to adopt and spread.

People who've spent their lives next to crashing cymbals and in front of roaring amps and crowds, and who are often endorsing a different amp/cab/guitar every other month, are somehow defacto credible or experts in hearing supposed AC filtration? Please. Being a good slapper or tapper is all fine and good, but where are their relevant credentials such as hearing tests or engineering degrees? As for gear reviewers, especially in the "audiophile" realm, if there were ever a more crooked, delusional, or easily fooled group that goes out of their way to try to hear things ... Where is their $1 million prize? Where is empirical A/B/X testing, or scope proof of manufacturer claims? Think of the money they'd make, and the prices they could charge, if they'd merely prove their claims (or supposed listening abilities, in the case of the reviewers)!

Rest assured Mr. Wooten is just as susceptible to the power of suggestion as anyone else, I'd argue much more so than most after having read his book.

Same as a painter or marksman will be just as susceptible to optical illusions. Same as doctors, accountants, and lawyers and even hedge fund managers were taken in by Madoff and other simple scams. Taxpayers and voters ...

That's the way the brain, and the ego, works - no matter what business you're in.

This is just Tara Labs Cables redux. Read those old threads if you're really a glutton for this. Spoiler - it ended with the company being raided by the feds. Hint - the raid wasn't for refuting the laws of physics. And Accugroove still hasn't got any patents for magic switches. Surprise, surprise. Today it's ESP, tomorrow something else. Suckers are never in short supply.