Absolutely - you're both being good players and gentleman when you do that. I call that "leading them to the promised land." Sometimes I have to point that out to a guitarist or keys player, especially when they tend to come in early on a part - I try to tell them nicely to "listen for that little fill/riff I do, I only do it as we go into the change."
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Opinion on playing extensions while walking
- Thread starter henry2513
- Start date
I would encourage anyone who uses it to get a legitimate copy.
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funny, the debate that seems to be bubbling up is "whose responsibility is it to outline / follow the changes?"
It reminds me of the "<bandmate> can't keep time" threads in the band management forum.
lots of opinions about which instrument's "job" it is to keep time. I believe it's a shared responsibility
-expecting all bandmates to fundamentally play in time is reasonable.
I suppose the same shared responsibility can be applied to supporting the harmony.
-expecting all bandmates to fundamentally support the harmony is also reasonable.
So if the guitarist can't follow the changes, who is at fault?
Is it his competence at following changes or a lack of strong fundamental harmonic support from others (bass)?
My response would be to avoid blaming anyone, and strive play sportively enough to prevent disaster,
"telegraphing the changes" as mentioned. There are sections of a song where going a little whackado is safe,
but there are critical transitions where a little run and nailing the basic root /triad will provide everyone with a bulletproof context
thus making the band sound better
It reminds me of the "<bandmate> can't keep time" threads in the band management forum.
lots of opinions about which instrument's "job" it is to keep time. I believe it's a shared responsibility
-expecting all bandmates to fundamentally play in time is reasonable.
I suppose the same shared responsibility can be applied to supporting the harmony.
-expecting all bandmates to fundamentally support the harmony is also reasonable.
So if the guitarist can't follow the changes, who is at fault?
Is it his competence at following changes or a lack of strong fundamental harmonic support from others (bass)?
My response would be to avoid blaming anyone, and strive play sportively enough to prevent disaster,
"telegraphing the changes" as mentioned. There are sections of a song where going a little whackado is safe,
but there are critical transitions where a little run and nailing the basic root /triad will provide everyone with a bulletproof context
thus making the band sound better
From the great Vic Wooten
“You’ve got to lay down the foundation that helps improve everything else that’s going on around you,” he said. “Sometimes I’ll hear bass players in groups and they’re just going all over the place, trying to show how well they can play and how much range and speed they have. But they’re not doing anything for the group and they’re not having any positive impact on the music. If you pay attention to the music, understand your role and know your instrument, you can still make plenty of noise individually.”
“You’ve got to lay down the foundation that helps improve everything else that’s going on around you,” he said. “Sometimes I’ll hear bass players in groups and they’re just going all over the place, trying to show how well they can play and how much range and speed they have. But they’re not doing anything for the group and they’re not having any positive impact on the music. If you pay attention to the music, understand your role and know your instrument, you can still make plenty of noise individually.”
AndrewFord
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- Aug 11, 2012
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This is a generalization, but, I analyzed several walking lines by some of the industries top bass players and found they started each chord change with the root almost 90% of the time, this may not be fancy but it establishes the foundation, pleases the other musicians, and serves the song in most cases. If those are not ones objectives then I can understand playing whatever harmony that makes you happy.
Extensions are only extensions in relation to the chord tones, right? So by playing chord tones in the bass line, you make the extensions into what they're intended to be. I suggest that when you solo, make sure that the guitar player is supporting your solo, and vice versa.
I don't strictly play roots on 1 throughout a tune. On the other hand, my habit is to listen carefully to what's going on around me, and if I notice that anybody is struggling for whatever reason, my general first reaction is to simplify. I've had singers tell me that they keep their place in the form by listening primarily to the bassist.
The best times are when the changes, form, and tempo are just "there" and nobody has to follow anything. That's when everybody can really open up and raise it to the next level.
The best times are when the changes, form, and tempo are just "there" and nobody has to follow anything. That's when everybody can really open up and raise it to the next level.
My answer to this one would be - hypothetically, could a decent singer sing the main melody of a tune he/she knows really well along with just your bassline and feel comfortable about where they were in the sequence at each point?
If not, then you're not really supporting the tune in a musical way. This is considerably more important than thinking about the technical identities of the notes you're playing at each point in the sequence and considerations of the degree of movement or whatever. I know it's a cliche, but ears trump numbers every time, even in jazz.
If not, then you're not really supporting the tune in a musical way. This is considerably more important than thinking about the technical identities of the notes you're playing at each point in the sequence and considerations of the degree of movement or whatever. I know it's a cliche, but ears trump numbers every time, even in jazz.
It sounds like you two have slightly different views on what kind of band it is. He wants to be rooted in more tradition or at least thinks so. Separate and overestimated issue.. regardless..
I was taught to cater to a soloist's preference if I know of any. Of course starting with general defaults like always play softer for piano solos. If I know what they like, what will make them more comfortable, or quite often what they think will make them more comfortable then I would try to support that.
At the very least it's an experiment. Say you give them chord tones for days or better yet pedal roots while shooting them a Pleasantville look. They come to you afterwards say hey I actually preferred your hip tensions, I'm sorry I blamed you, then breakdown crying, walk home alone, and bow down to bass players everyday forward.
I was taught to cater to a soloist's preference if I know of any. Of course starting with general defaults like always play softer for piano solos. If I know what they like, what will make them more comfortable, or quite often what they think will make them more comfortable then I would try to support that.
At the very least it's an experiment. Say you give them chord tones for days or better yet pedal roots while shooting them a Pleasantville look. They come to you afterwards say hey I actually preferred your hip tensions, I'm sorry I blamed you, then breakdown crying, walk home alone, and bow down to bass players everyday forward.
lol, this thread still going. My bass teacher said it best - (in regards to playing roots on every 1) "that's what Aebersold is for".
I was taught that if you can't outline the harmony own your own while you're soloing -if someone can't tell what chords you're outlining etc, without drums, bass, kb, guitar, whatever else is out there to back you - sorry, but you ain't doing it, get back to the woodshed and do your homework. Like I said, extensions weren't being played on every 1 and 3, they were in there a small % of the time. I'm not playing with this particular group anymore; have had a few jams with the new group - playing the same type of material and no complaints from the guitarist or any other soloist for that matter, not a one.
I was taught that if you can't outline the harmony own your own while you're soloing -if someone can't tell what chords you're outlining etc, without drums, bass, kb, guitar, whatever else is out there to back you - sorry, but you ain't doing it, get back to the woodshed and do your homework. Like I said, extensions weren't being played on every 1 and 3, they were in there a small % of the time. I'm not playing with this particular group anymore; have had a few jams with the new group - playing the same type of material and no complaints from the guitarist or any other soloist for that matter, not a one.
we're in the same city, OP. i'm going to find your gigs and count up the 11s baby! 
come on guys we need a sample size here.
come on guys we need a sample size here.
Agreed about outlining the changes, or at least implying them strongly enough that everyone can hear them. And my chief complaint when I'm soloing is that I constantly find what I'm playing stepped on by accompanists who don't know how to respond to what I'm doing or who simply pound out the changes with no regard for what I'm doing. So I will often ask for no accompaniment except from the drummer, if there is one. This is why I often prefer playing with guitarists, as so many keyboard players simply fill up too much space too much of the time; with only six strings, guitarist are less prone to this.
At the same time, when you have a skilled accompanist, you can spend less time making sure the changes are heard, and sometimes play more outside than you could otherwise, which can be fun and make for better solos, provided, of course, that good taste isn't abandoned!
