Opinion on playing extensions while walking

[M0ses]

If the guitarist doesn't have the harmony internalized, that's his own problem and nothing the bassist plays is going to fix it.
That being said, if the bassline doesn't clearly outline the harmony, that's another problem, as well.

Everyone has to do their part, that's why it's called a band.

 

[henry2513]

The other issue that might come into play here is: who is your audience? If you're at a dedicated jazz club or a college music class, that's one thing. But if you're dropping the 13 on beat 1 in front of a general audience, you're kind of shooting yourself in the foot. Most audiences these days have a hard enough time figuring out what the hell jazz is all about (and why the musicians all seem to be playing a different song at the same time). Going full-on jazz math with the bassline sure isn't going to help matters--especially if the other MUSICIANS can't even figure out what' going on!

I'm all for knowledge applied to music, but jazz musicians these days are often too smart for our own good. Depending on the gig, I'll resort to straight up ostinato lines if I feel like we're losing all the drunk chicks at the bar. SOMEBODY has to play some harmony the average joe can hear and understand. The guitar player sure as hell ain't gonna do it.

Jazz clubs and it might slip by once in a great while but generally, no (as I already explained elsewhere in this thread) I'm not dropping a 13th on the 1 while I'm walking.

 

[jazzsoul]

While I was in college I remember our Professor Jiggs Whigham telling us not to forget to play the root and the third. As a bass player it is your job to serve the soloist. There is no general rule, but if you play too many extensions that even your band members get lost because they are missing the hamonics, then there really is something wrong.

 

[Lee Moses]

You must be looking at a different chart lol. Last time I checked, 9th, 11ths, #11ths and 13ths were extensions...well maybe they're not when Ron Carter played them? Perhaps they magically became "chord tones".

We're talking downbeats, as in on the "one." That's where other musicians and listeners look for the harmonic structure. Of course you are going to use other diatonic and chromatic notes on other beats.

Did you really ask a question in this thread, or did you just want a pity party?

 

[Stick_Player]

Did you really ask a question in this thread, or did you just want a pity party?

 

[henry2513]

We're talking downbeats, as in on the "one." That's where other musicians and listeners look for the harmonic structure. Of course you are going to use other diatonic and chromatic notes on other beats.

Did you really ask a question in this thread, or did you just want a pity party?

Lol last i checked 1st and 3rd qtr notes in a bar of 4/4 are down beats but what do i know.

 

[INTP]

Lol last i checked 1st and 3rd qtr notes in a bar of 4/4 are down beats but what do i know.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downbeat
"Downbeat, the first beat of a measure in music."

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/downbeat
"(music) The accented beat at the beginning of a bar (indicated by a conductor with a downward stroke)"

Link Removed
"noun Music.
1. the downward stroke of a conductor's arm or baton indicating the first or accented beat of a measure.
2. the first beat of a measure."

 

[carl h.]

one is the downbeat

One and three are strong beats in a typical 4/4 bar.

 

[mambo4]

yeah "downbeat" is not the opposite of "backbeat" which is generally the 2 and 4 in a 4/4 bar
( a precise definition of "backbeat" is vague/dependswhoyouask/contextual )

 

[Lownote38]

On a related note, the soloist shouldn't be stuck in extension land either. Chester Thompson (the drummer), made us do an exercise in school that was very enlightening. He had each person play a solo over the changes, but with only the drums and no chords. He made the point of saying that in a good solo, even without chords playing, the harmony of a song should be somewhat obvious. We all had to try and do this. This sent "the whole tone scale only" players into a state of shock needless to say, but Chester was right. A good solo implies what chords go underneath it. A good walking bass line does the same.

 

[tkozal]

What I play on the one is based on what the other musicians can handle. Guitar players usually want the roots on the one. Not so much the horn and keys people, vocalists crave the root on the one. When I am in a jazz workshop and unaware of the others skill level, I ask the leader.

 

[Groove Doctor]

Would you care to rewrite your OP to clarify the real problems?

Or were you just venting?

 

[Stick_Player]

Lol last i checked 1st and 3rd qtr notes in a bar of 4/4 are down beats but what do i know.

We are finding out.

 

[henry2513]

Haha, this is all comedy to me, especially the wikipedia/dictionary citations. Calling the 1 and 3 downbeats is how I learned it from one of the guys I took lessons from. When an incredible musician teaches me something, I'm not worried about fact checking it, I accept it - but that's my approach, everyone's got theirs.

Futzing up nomenclature doesn't change the notes that are being played on the 1'st and 3rd beats. Anyhow more of RC's lines: [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

Ooh, lala, yes, he's using extensions on downbeats and strongbeats. It's nonsensical to make an argument based on an assumption, extrapolation based on crappy logic, stuff you've only read in books, never put into practice, or based on a quote you picked up somewhere.

 

[Stick_Player]

Futzing up nomenclature doesn't change the notes that are being played on the 1'st and 3rd beats. Anyhow more of RC's lines: [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

Which tune, which measure(s)?

 

[Stick_Player]

Calling the 1 and 3 downbeats is how I learned it from one of the guys I took lessons from. When an incredible musician teaches me something, I'm not worried about fact checking it, I accept it - but that's my approach, everyone's got theirs.

There's only ONE downbeat per measure:

 

[jazzsoul]

Anyhow more of RC's lines: [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

Yes, those Ron Carter lines are very good examples for playing the root on the one.

Those lines are transcriptions of an aebersold playalong set, which was made for educational purposes. It is very important that the rhythm section plays very inside, for that the practicing soloist feels comfortable with the harmonics.

 

[M0ses]

Hey that is an incredibly educational PDF, thank you.

 

[RustyAxe]

I tend to make the final bars of the head or section really obvious - say, a simple root-5 line over a concluding ii-V-I ... I feel this acts as a signpost for other players. In a trio, IME, we bass players need to be mindful of the fact that we are often also filling the role of a chordal instrument; providing a strong harmonic and structural foundation is really important.

Very good point, and one I tend to do instinctively. On a gig recently (trio) the fill-in keyboardist came up to me at first break to chat. I told him he was easy to play with, and he told me I made it easy for him because I "telegraphed" the changes.

 

[edpal]

Well I agree it is optimal you don't fall too far off of the chord structure with your extensions, I highly agree with the OP that it is important for the guitarist to be able to go on with or without the bass player. Two common scenarios where this will be crucial- recording tracks and gigging situations where for whatever reason the guitarist can't hear or maybe even feel the bass. The guitarist needs to practice to a click until he can play his songs with or without the click. Just my 2 cents.

I've had similar problem with drummers who can't go through 8-12 bars "without me". We have original where all three of us(power trio) are galloping along fast, like 150 bpm 1/8s. At a dramatic point I cut to whole notes for a downward progression. 7 out of 10 drummers crash and burn right there. Why they can't just stay locked with the guitarist for 12 bars is beyond me. My guitarist agrees.