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Double Bass Opinions needed for "Jam Etiquette" question

#21
I host the local jam session for my town at a friends studio. We have players from every skill level. Old jazz guys who have been playing over 50 years, young popular hotshot country guitarists, metalhead kids who can't tune a guitar and don't know what "drop D" means as they don't know "musical theory lingo" even though that's what they are doing.

There are two strange things about this jam. one is that everyone is very sociable and tolerant of the wide variety of genres and are actually very supportive of everyone. We even have a few (pardon the term) ******** (and no, i mean quite literally as this town was home to a large state mental facility which shut down) guys who get up and wail bizarre lyrics into the mic and beat on guitar strings. People actually genuinely seem to enjoy it. ...well, sometimes you might overhear someone making an unkind comment, but those people are the minority

Even weirder than that is that there are more bass players here than anything, even guitarists. A typical night has around 4 singer/songwriter guitarists, 2 or 3 drummers, 2 or 3 lead guitarist types and 5 to 7 bassists. (all electric and yes I know this is the DB forum)

We try very hard to make sure everyone gets a shot on stage, (10 to 15 mins at a time usually) sometimes I don't even play at all, but the drummers all seem to get a workout.

But above all, we are very supportive of amateurs, and often they get the loudest applause. It does seem to build their confidence as I see many of them go from barely being able to tune an instrument to holding down a groove rather respectably in less than a month sometimes. A jam is about playing and developing your skills among other musicians and enjoying yourself and the art of music, it's not about entertaining the audience and providing them a show, although sometimes great music does happen.

So to the OP, go and play and learn whatever you can from the experience. Stop worrying about what others think of your playing. Just be yourself and do the best you are able to do. Next time, you will be doing it a little bit better.

As for 2 basses at once, you need to talk to the other bassist about that and possibly the host as well or whoever you will be playing with. It's hard for me to envision it in a bluegrass setting, but if the other bassist is as good as you percieve and if he is the open minded creative type, he might let you lay down the root-5 while he grooves it up a little in a higher register.

It all depends, talk to people and ask good questions. People like to answer good questions!
 
#22
Thor said:
The distinction here can be distilled to this:

Either the jams are 'Open Mike', or they are 'Invitational'.

At Open Mike, a host will orchestrate and manage who plays, sometimes selecting players to play together so all get a turn at playing. Sometimes there is a sign up sheet. Usually at OM's I attend, the bassists and available accompanists sign up on the side, as there are single and vocal artists that may or may not want help. Other players often get to work together. The idea is that everyone gets a chance to progress, regardless of skill level.

At 'Invitational', your are encouraged prior to attend - a subtle invite. (Why don't you came by Saturday's jam ...) You may not know who is there. Doesn't matter, who know who of the invitees may or may not show.

From a bassists perspective, if there are two of us, I expect the bandleader or host to delegate the duties between the two, usually by suggestion. He may ask the other bassist to alternate.

Also, quite frankly, when I am in that situation, I am happy to share and have a break. I may be better or worse that the other guy, but taking a whizz and working some fans is nice too as well as an occasional refreshment.

When that other bassist offered to switch off, that was your invitation. You should have taken it. That was the 'etiquette' - you were offered a switch off and declined.

From the POV of the band leader/host or other bassist, once you decline, they assume you aren't interested or for whatever reason, are not in the game. They never expected you to be stellar, they just offered you time in the saddle with a nice situation.

Next time just say, 'If I have a chance to play, that would be great, Let me know when you want to jump back in."

That is a winner with good manners and gets you time in the pocket. Bow in gracefully, do your stuff and bow out gracefully. You will then get invited back and to plenty of other situations as well.

Don't compare, overthink the stuff or marginalize yourself. Just go after the song and music.
Click to expand...

Dude, that isn't how bluegrass works... :(
 
#23
Nev375 said:
I host the local jam session for my town at a friends studio. We have players from every skill level. Old jazz guys who have been playing over 50 years, young popular hotshot country guitarists, metalhead kids who can't tune a guitar and don't know what "drop D" means as they don't know "musical theory lingo" even though that's what they are doing.

There are two strange things about this jam. one is that everyone is very sociable and tolerant of the wide variety of genres and are actually very supportive of everyone. We even have a few (pardon the term) ******** (and no, i mean quite literally as this town was home to a large state mental facility which shut down) guys who get up and wail bizarre lyrics into the mic and beat on guitar strings. People actually genuinely seem to enjoy it. ...well, sometimes you might overhear someone making an unkind comment, but those people are the minority

Even weirder than that is that there are more bass players here than anything, even guitarists. A typical night has around 4 singer/songwriter guitarists, 2 or 3 drummers, 2 or 3 lead guitarist types and 5 to 7 bassists. (all electric and yes I know this is the DB forum)

We try very hard to make sure everyone gets a shot on stage, (10 to 15 mins at a time usually) sometimes I don't even play at all, but the drummers all seem to get a workout.

But above all, we are very supportive of amateurs, and often they get the loudest applause. It does seem to build their confidence as I see many of them go from barely being able to tune an instrument to holding down a groove rather respectably in less than a month sometimes. A jam is about playing and developing your skills among other musicians and enjoying yourself and the art of music, it's not about entertaining the audience and providing them a show, although sometimes great music does happen.

So to the OP, go and play and learn whatever you can from the experience. Stop worrying about what others think of your playing. Just be yourself and do the best you are able to do. Next time, you will be doing it a little bit better.

As for 2 basses at once, you need to talk to the other bassist about that and possibly the host as well or whoever you will be playing with. It's hard for me to envision it in a bluegrass setting, but if the other bassist is as good as you percieve and if he is the open minded creative type, he might let you lay down the root-5 while he grooves it up a little in a higher register.

It all depends, talk to people and ask good questions. People like to answer good questions!
Click to expand...

Ditto.
 
#25
Nev375 said:
I host the local jam session for my town at a friends studio. We have players from every skill level. Old jazz guys who have been playing over 50 years, young popular hotshot country guitarists, metalhead kids who can't tune a guitar and don't know what "drop D" means as they don't know "musical theory lingo" even though that's what they are doing.

There are two strange things about this jam. one is that everyone is very sociable and tolerant of the wide variety of genres and are actually very supportive of everyone. We even have a few (pardon the term) ******** (and no, i mean quite literally as this town was home to a large state mental facility which shut down) guys who get up and wail bizarre lyrics into the mic and beat on guitar strings. People actually genuinely seem to enjoy it. ...well, sometimes you might overhear someone making an unkind comment, but those people are the minority

Even weirder than that is that there are more bass players here than anything, even guitarists. A typical night has around 4 singer/songwriter guitarists, 2 or 3 drummers, 2 or 3 lead guitarist types and 5 to 7 bassists. (all electric and yes I know this is the DB forum)

We try very hard to make sure everyone gets a shot on stage, (10 to 15 mins at a time usually) sometimes I don't even play at all, but the drummers all seem to get a workout.

But above all, we are very supportive of amateurs, and often they get the loudest applause. It does seem to build their confidence as I see many of them go from barely being able to tune an instrument to holding down a groove rather respectably in less than a month sometimes. A jam is about playing and developing your skills among other musicians and enjoying yourself and the art of music, it's not about entertaining the audience and providing them a show, although sometimes great music does happen.

So to the OP, go and play and learn whatever you can from the experience. Stop worrying about what others think of your playing. Just be yourself and do the best you are able to do. Next time, you will be doing it a little bit better.

As for 2 basses at once, you need to talk to the other bassist about that and possibly the host as well or whoever you will be playing with. It's hard for me to envision it in a bluegrass setting, but if the other bassist is as good as you percieve and if he is the open minded creative type, he might let you lay down the root-5 while he grooves it up a little in a higher register.

It all depends, talk to people and ask good questions. People like to answer good questions!
Click to expand...

And based on your description, this was an Open Mike, you were the host, and you made sure everyone had a chance to play regardless of skill level. Right?

Stop worrying about what?:
NEv375 said:
Stop worrying about what others think of your playing. Just be yourself and do the best you are able to do.
Click to expand...
Thor said:
Don't compare, overthink the stuff or marginalize yourself. Just go after the song and music.
Click to expand...

I believe that was the point I made. Same shade of gray.

Nice to see that Jake agreed with that while he disagreed with the same point in the previous post. So we 'agree' to 'disagree'.

Must be because I play electric now. I guess the violin work I did never counted for anything.
:(

Guess I don't know how it works.
Michael Valentine Smith said:
I am just an egg
Click to expand...
So, what is it? I would like to be enlightened here.
 
#26
Thor said:
Jams up here in this area work like that. YMMV. I always thought trying to have good manners was helpful.

I'd appreciate it if you could explain then how it works in your neck-o-the-woods. I don't want to give the OP bad advice. :)
Click to expand...

Hi Thor,

In my experience, a 'typical' Bluegrass jam is not really akin to the 'open mic' style jams you describe. It's usually more informal: there may be a host, but no sign up. More like a gathering of friends [or strangers] playing together at a picnic, or a campground. There is usually food and libations, young and old- a real mixed bag. There is sort of a repetoire that people share, so you can play with just about any bluegrass musician.

In an open mic performance, you might sign in and play your three songs and then listen for the remainder of the night. At a Bluegrass jam, you have a chance to play with everyone who shows up, sometimes simultaneously. You get to choose songs and play them with the entire group, and others choose songs and you play along with as part of the group.
 
#27
Here's what I've seen over the years and how bluegrass differs from the pretty detailed explanation Thor gave above.

1) Often BG jams are neither "invitation" or "open mic" - they're just a standing time and place that gets publicized somehow (often the local BG association's web site) and everyone is invited. You never know what to expect in the way of a mix of instruments (well, you can always predict guitars will outnumber everyone else three to one) and skill level - so far, this is like the "open mic"
2) Everyone plays all the time (typically). Sometimes this means you have nine guitars, three banjos, a few mandolins, and maybe a fiddle or dobro, and sometimes even a bass all playing all the time. We get away with this in BG because no one is plugged in - it can be a big wall of noise, but because it's all un-amplified, it's not a deafening wall of noise.
3) It's accepted etiquette for a player on most instruments to noodle quietly while the group plays. This might be because the player is a newbie and just wants to follow along or maybe it's a new tune the player is trying to learn. This works most of the time, except maybe in the case of the bass player because it's really hard to noodle quietly on the bass when you're trying to learn how to play solid time. And I think this is where the OP's question comes from - how to do this without being disruptive and I think there's been some good advice given so far.

Mark
 
#28
A freind of mine has this posted on his website. It is a tounge-in-cheek set of groundrules for bluegrass jam ettiquette. Read with a light heart and a smile on your face:

NOTES ON JAMS AND JAM ETIQUETTE

Also a good set of 'rules'. There are variations of these all over the web:

Link Removed

Specifically regarding two basses: IMO it's usually a bad idea to have them both playing at once*. Take turns! Usually, when I walk up to a jam with the bass in tow- i'll just set back and listen. After a few tunes, the bassist who is playing might ask me to take over so that they can refresh their drink or eat or take a break and listen too. Just remember to offer the spot back to the player or another bassist after you've done your time.

*the same can be said about banjos, mandolins and dobros. Usually more than 2 guitars begin to sound cluttered as well.
 
#29
I see it as a way for you to understand how to take advantage of a negative situation.

All your life you'll be wanting to play with musicians that are above your level,then when you get the chance,you don't have enough self esteem to do it?
Music and playing is a learning process where unexpected situations show up when least expected ( a cat chew my cable,beer spill on the wires,a light fell and miss you by this much)
This one was one of them,it teaches you something for the next one : make the best of it,sit with him,play and learn,because this what you want right? to play better.
I mean,let's say a great known bass player invite you to play along side ,will you refuse?
Focus on what you are looking for in music,which is to evolve,then forget about what you do not know,concentrate about what you know and play it well,never take it as a boxing match,there is only one winner and is you,because you are the one that IS LEARNING in all this.
Make a positive situation from a negative one,build up your self esteem,you have to be ready to play with the best,eventually,you won't get there by chicken out,but by progressing.
Real embarrassment is when accomplished musicians do not understand beginners and bully them,and fortunately,most of them will try to help in this situations.
 
#30
When two basses show up , it is frustrating but gonna happen. I have always worked out with the other bass player to trade off songs. When you are a beginner, it is intimidating but it will not be long until your chops are good enough to relax and have a good time. After all, it is only music. :bassist:
 
#33
I had a kind of similar experience yesterday. It was at someones house so it wasn't such a,straight genre setting, but a group of guys that had played together before, including the host, started jamming on some fusion jazz that just blew my mind. I'm a first call guy when it comes to country bands around here, but can't "jazz" my way out of a wet paper sack! I straight told them it is over my head, but I want to learn it. Then, talked to several of them about what I should do to get there and they where more than happy to talk about it. Later, I did play on a slower traditional jazz walking type thing and they gave me a nod like I was doing well.

Just gotta do it! They'll respect you for being truthful and for wanting to better yourself!
 
#35
Two bass's don't work in a jam, I've seen two or more in a jam but man it was horrible for timing and how they could play when hearing all those other low notes is beyond me.

As to your specific question, if I'm in a jam and another bass player walks in what do I think if they pull it out and start to play it.............. I personally think it is very rude of the individual. For reasons mentioned above............

I've been in that situation more times than I can remember over the years at festivals, a great jam will be going on and another bass player walks in and starts playing their bass in the same jam I've been playing in for hours perhaps.

I pack up as it ain't cool and it ain't right and I can't play with the two bass's going at once.

In my opinion they should keep walking and find their own jam that doesn't have a bass which is what I do at festivals. Or set the bass down at the side and stand/sit and listen.

If I'm playing and I see someone walk in with a bass and set theirs down I am likely to call on them to come fill in on my bass while I go to the bathroom or to mix a drink or similar.

That is ettiquette in my opinion, and when they ask me for some input or want to learn something I'm more than happy to show them or give them anything I might know that they don't.

You asked and that is my opinion in general terms, now at a club where 4 or 5 bass's show up you either have to split off into seperate jams or the bass players take turns, at a local club it is all in one big room so we take turns. Usually I take along another instrument to play. If there are multiple bass players I'll just stay with the other instrument......
 
#36
I realize that Finnish folk music is different from Bluegrass, but I've been in some jams here where there were more than one bass players. Usually two, me and somebody else. I've tried the following with success:

1) Talk with the other bass player, and work out who'll play when.

If this isn't possible for some reason,

2) Buy myself a beer and wait for the other bass player to get thirsty
3) Buy the other bass player a drink & keep an eye for when they look ready to play again.
4) Join the harmony players with simple arco playing up the fingerboard.
 
#37
Bluegrass jams are consistently one of the few frustrating events I find myself in as a bass player. On a regular basis, you'll find 15 different banjo and guitar players all madly mashing out of tune at once and everyone thinks it is a great time, but if two bass players even pick up their instruments in the same room, everyone gets all bent out of shape. The same thing often goes with taking a solo break; I know a lot of the melody lines better than some of the fiddle players, but IF anyone gives you space for a solo break (VERY RARE), you get treated like a pariah. Pull out your bow and it is pretty much the "jam buster". Like it or not, those are just part of the culture....

As much as I like playing bluegrass and live in a powerhouse town for it, I pretty much stopped going to most of the local jams due to one specific other bass player- a loud, smelly, confrontational, drunk older woman with lame skills who seems to be at every jam I've been to and spends abut 90% of her time bossing around orders and yelling at other folks while she hogs the entire session and plays out of tune....:hmm:

j.
 
#40
I occasionally encounter the same scenario at my local jams as a banjo player. ( my other musical personality ) It's unusual for another banjo player to show up to begin with, and when they do, most are inexperienced players who have been inspired to take up the instrument from the recent wave of folky movie soundtracks and found an ad for our jam in a local bar magazine. Most of the time I just sit back and have a beer, let them have their fun, and wait it out. Then, when they break for a beer I slip into the circle. I've been a 5 stringer since 1968, know the instrument pretty well, and play at a fairly advanced level. However, if it were an elite player, I'd sit back and listen...and hopefully learn something. Those types don't come around too often though.
I recently showed up at our weekly jam to find another banjo guy throwing down some nice licks, albeit a bit choppy and awkward, like he'd been learning them from a banjo book. But the guy had no sense of dynamics. He was like one of those pesky harmonica players that plays over every part of the song. And he played as loud as he could all the time. Eventually the entire song circle bailed on him...one by one...and headed for the bar, leaving him there by himself.
 

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