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Double Bass Orchestral bowing

Sep 24, 2011
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Hi all

was looking for some general guidelines and found this:

Link Removed

It may be useful as a reference for those of us looking to include more bowing symbols on orchestral charts...Hopefully, it is useful and not another confusing text...
 
Will take that on board, thanks NeilG. At present I am simply trying to understand the rules around when to start with an up bow, or a down bow, when a retake is appropriate and so on. All part of the journey, but it pays to have people point me in the right direction, I suppose, which you folks patiently do.
 
Hi Andy,
Here are two bowing related books I mentioned in a previous post:
1. Orchestral Bowings and Routines by Elizabeth Green (Amercian String Teachers Association)
The first half of this book explains the logic behind the choice of up or down bow in differnt situations.
2.Orchestral Bowing - Style and Function by James Kjelland (Alfred)
This is some of the best description of how to execute different bow strokes and where to use them, that I have seen in print.

Also in a previous post in Orchestral Technique & Methods (at the top of this section) I gave some really basic guidelines for another poster with a similar question.
 
Will take that on board, thanks NeilG. At present I am simply trying to understand the rules around when to start with an up bow, or a down bow, when a retake is appropriate and so on. All part of the journey, but it pays to have people point me in the right direction, I suppose, which you folks patiently do.
There are no rules as such. There ARE things which are easier and/or more natural. Given that the bow only moves in two directions, you should learn to play music with that way AND the less easy and less natural ways. My quip about markings comes from playing with people who need every note bowed. Makes me crazy. Unless the sequence of down-up changes, I know what to do. :)
 
Here's a good example. It's Klaus Stoll (long time principal of the Berlin Philharmonic) talking about the Beethoven 5th. If you don't know German, he starts by welcoming you to his musical home, explain how important, exposed and difficult the bass part is in the 5th. Then at 3'47" in, he explains that many bass players (and in fact many editions) bow the legato phrase starting upbow, but he explains why he does it down bow (more control and a more natural decrescendo in the motion of the bow). No right or wrong. Just taste and experience.

Louis

 
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Thank you everyone and Louis thanks for the video. I have seen Klaus's video before, to my mind, in the way he plays, he seems to go against 'standard' convention for a number of things but he sounds great!
 
I once used that bowing in an audition. While I got the job, I was mildly chastised by the conductor for "doing it backwards". Be flexible.
There isn't really a standard for this passage, though. I was taught both, and told to have both prepared for any audition. Of course you offer the one that makes more sense to you, but don't be surprised if someone on the panel thinks differently.
 
Hi Andy,

Dont know if you have seen Andrew Hugills site but I think its very helpful as it has sound clips and videos to illustrate the texture /tone , bow markings on the DB (rather than just written text which can be open to interpretation )

http://andrewhugill.com/manuals/bass/bowing.html

Peter

Also this has quite a wide range of resources some of which are mentioned above [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
 
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I once used that bowing in an audition. While I got the job, I was mildly chastised by the conductor for "doing it backwards". Be flexible.
Because part of section playing is following the bowings given to you. It is part of the audition as well, not just hearing with the eyes. If you can't follow bowings, it goes against your audition.

If you are auditioning for principal, you must be able to create bowings which get the section the sound the conductor wants as well, if you cannot do that, it also goes against you. You are to play the best you can within the GIVEN parameters.
 
Because part of section playing is following the bowings given to you. It is part of the audition as well, not just hearing with the eyes. If you can't follow bowings, it goes against your audition.

If you are auditioning for principal, you must be able to create bowings which get the section the sound the conductor wants as well, if you cannot do that, it also goes against you. You are to play the best you can within the GIVEN parameters.
No bowings were indicated in the parts they sent out. If there had been I would certainly have followed them. It was a minor quibble, but he did mention it. You can't really tell if a candidate can follow or create bowings if they perform excerpts given to them months before.
 
Some parts have understood/expected bowings, where others have a few options. A lesson or two with the current/outgoing principal is an extremely valuable way to learn if that particular orchestra has specific bowings they use for the excerpts on the list, and also to discover their usual tempi, and any other nuances that they will be looking for. If they are not marked and you did not have that lesson, then doing what is most comfortable/effective for you is always a good place to start, but being prepared to do something differently if requested is equally valuable. I have heard of recent auditions where awkward or "backwards" bowings have been requested along with many other very uncharacteristic articulations and tempos, to evaluate the flexibility of the player. If you can nail it the way you want to play it that is always a good start, but being able to do so the way they want it is what gets you the job.

Back to Andy's questions, convention dictates that "strong" beats are on down bows, and "weak" beats are on up bows. This means that passages that start on the beat/beginning of the bar are typically down, and passages that start with pickups are usually up, such that the down occurs where it is supposed to. If you follow that, 80% of the time you will be on the right track. The other 20% is made up of times when a passage could be made easier by starting with the "wrong" bow, such as lots of string crossings, passages with extended pickups/leading to important passages where you want to end up in a particular direction, and other times when the conductor, concert master, principal cellist, principal bassist, or someone else decides that they have some magical bowing that everyone needs to use.

Extended stays on a particular note have three possibilities, which you likely want to confirm with the principal bassist. One being that bows will be changed at designated places, another being that they will be changed in a staggered fashion but relatively the same, and the last being that the section changes freely. Typically there is a desired starting and finishing direction in those cases.

Retakes generally happen when you are starting a new idea and want to emphasize it, for big changes in dynamics, if there is a note that will get you in the wrong direction, and waltzes. The first two are pretty self-explanatory. For the third, think of a bar that starts with a 1/4 note and is followed by a string of 1/8ths. If you start down on the first note, it would make sense to also start down on the second note, in order to maintain the strong-weak relationship mentioned earlier. I have been told that Strauss waltzes where the bass section plays beat one and rests of two and three should be played all down and seen it done that way multiple times, but some sections break that rule.

Two ups can also be used to get you back in the desired direction, and is fairly common when one longer note is followed by two shorter ones. This is another way to pay service to the golden rule of down-up = strong-weak.

Baroque/early music, especially when performed on period bows often reverses this relationship, because the up bow is the stronger bow. This is largely because of the camber in the bow and how it is held, but each ensemble (cult) has its own rules, so it is best not to go in with any assumptions.

Hopefully that is useful. Another resource not mentioned are various editions of parts that have bowings indicated. I believe Zimmerman publications has all of the Beethoven and Brahms symphonies and the Strauss tone poems with both bowings and (4ths) fingerings, and there are a few other such publications. Seeing all of the above wall of text in context is going to be far more helpful, and it should give you a better sense of when the "rules" should be broken.
 
Here's a good example. It's Klaus Stoll (long time principal of the Berlin Philharmonic) talking about the Beethoven 5th. If you don't know German, he starts by welcoming you to his musical home, explain how important, exposed and difficult the bass part is in the 5th. Then at 3'47" in, he explains that many bass players (and in fact many editions) bow the legato phrase starting upbow, but he explains why he does it down bow (more control and a more natural decrescendo in the motion of the bow). No right or wrong. Just taste and experience.

Louis

I think that most bassists prefer to start the Beethoven Scherzo downbow, but most cellists want to start up. In other passages the basses tend to be more comfortable changing bows in a long slurred passage and the cellos not. So, it depends on the culture of the orchestra whether the basses must blindly follow the other strings, or can get away with doing some things slightly different.
 
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