Double Bass Orchestral Education at a Solo School?

[Eli_Upright12]

Is this the point at which I get to reveal that I was once a Gary Karr student also? I spent a 9-week summer in his class back when it was at the Johannessen School for the Arts in Victoria.

Gary is inspirational; his wisdom and style opened up whole new worlds of possibility in bass playing, but it took another seven years after that camp to temper that "solo-centered" style of playing with an "orchestral approach" in order to actually get an orchestra job. Worth noting.

Wow that's really cool, so do you think that what he taught you help you become a better orchestral player in the end? or was it just a momentary detour on the way to being an orchestral player?

 

[Low8va]

To reinforce a point made earlier, consider this. How many players not named Edgar Meyer or Gary Karr in the last century have made a career as a double bass soloist? Solo playing is very important to the development of any player, (orchestra/jazz/teacher/freelancer) as that is where we can experiment with interpretation and musical coloring, not to mention that a solo is usually the first thing the committee and conductor will hear in the finals of an audition, but it is not where our collective bread is buttered. Kpo is right. Find a teacher who has the skill set and experience necessary to show you how to make a living! Most orchestra pros, especially the really good ones, teach somewhere, and can usually play solos extremely well. Find one you respect and get to work.

And if my math is correct, of the dozen or so auditions in the last year, only 3 or 4 of the eventual winners went to school at IU/Rice/Curtis etc. Places like NEC, Peabody, USC and Carnegie Mellon are fine places to study with very good teachers, and they have produced winners. I think it is important to remember that one is hired because of their playing, not because of where or with whom they studied.

 

[NWBass]

+1. It seems not clearly mentioned that there are a lot of big time orchestral players teaching at many other schools besides the "big 4" mentioned. Though I agree with KPO: how can you really know you won't get in until you try? Other schools: USC (CA), NEC, Boston Conservatory, MSM, Peabody, CIM, Northwestern, to name only a few. All have great orchestral teachers with major symphony experience. And as you pointed out, you have to play a solo(s) to win jobs, which all of the teachers at the aforementioned schools did.

Best of luck!

 

[kpo]

Wow that's really cool, so do you think that what he taught you help you become a better orchestral player in the end? or was it just a momentary detour on the way to being an orchestral player?

Gary was a great help for playing *music* on the double bass, learning the possibilities of double bass as a solo voice.

I wouldn't call it a detour, just a stop along the way. Soloing and playing in a section require totally different sensibilities and noticeably different skill sets.

 

[Eli_Upright12]

Gary was a great help for playing *music* on the double bass, learning the possibilities of double bass as a solo voice.

I wouldn't call it a detour, just a stop along the way. Soloing and playing in a section require totally different sensibilities and noticeably different skill sets.

That's cool, did you pick up any orchestral skills while studying with Gary? Or did you only learn the soloist capabilities of the instrument? I'm currently studying in Gary's style; Slow bow at the bridge. I find it a little hard to believe that even with soloistic teachers a student wouldnt learn anything about playing orchestral parts. I know with my current teacher my intonation, left hand technique and general bow skills have improved.

 

[thedbassist]

That's cool, did you pick up any orchestral skills while studying with Gary? Or did you only learn the soloist capabilities of the instrument? I'm currently studying in Gary's style; Slow bow at the bridge. I find it a little hard to believe that even with soloistic teachers a student wouldnt learn anything about playing orchestral parts. I know with my current teacher my intonation, left hand technique and general bow skills have improved.

Well, of course you'd learn about the orchestral repertoire if you went to a school like Michigan, or any music school for that matter. The major difference is how much the repertoire-and auditioning- is going to be stressed during your schooling, which definitely matters when it comes to getting a job.

 

[SAlcott]

Does anybody have any idea how Eastman grads have fared in orchestra auditions since the change from Oscar Zimmerman to James VanDemark?

 

[dkziemann]

I'm an Eastman undergrad right now- I know Brett Shurtliffe went here for undergrad, then Duquesne and is not Assistant Principal of the BPO

 

[kpo]

That's cool, did you pick up any orchestral skills while studying with Gary? Or did you only learn the soloist capabilities of the instrument?

Strictly solo, whether he meant it that way or not. Lots of technical and musical ideas, ALL powerful and beautiful sounding, NONE of them orchestral -- 'cause, hey, Orchestra is not what he does!

I'm currently studying in Gary's style; Slow bow at the bridge. I find it a little hard to believe that even with soloistic teachers a student wouldnt learn anything about playing orchestral parts. I know with my current teacher my intonation, left hand technique and general bow skills have improved.

Well, if you're not spending time **Practicing** orchestra parts and Actually Performing orchestra parts IN AN ORCHESTRA, guess what? You're not learning how to play in an orchestra!

You might not realize the differences when you do get to play in an orchestra, but everyone around you *will* notice.... Playing orchestra parts is not about projecting your tone, vibrato and musical idea to the back of the hall, but it's about you *joining* everyone else on stage in making the *same* tone, rhythm, tempo, bowing and musical intent, (and often *not* slow bow, and *not* anywhere close to the bridge - which took me along time to believe and understand after reveling in the glorious sound that Gary help me get).

Gary Karr's gorgeous style and "Orchestra" style really are very different approaches to music making on the bass - and "Orchestra" style just-so-happens to be the approach that classical bass players need to master if they want a paycheck for playing music - even if they're so lucky as to land a university teaching position, their students will also need orchestral "wisdom" in addition to solo skills.

You're lucky to have the "Gary" style under your belt, but consider it as *part* of your Portfolio that you can Use As Needed in orchestra or chamber music; Big, Bold and Beautiful sound is great solo, but when you're One Voice in the "choir" that is The Orchestra, you gotta have a big portfolio of sounds and styles, ... so perhaps the next school or teacher you work with, it's okay to look for someone who has, and teaches, Orchestral experience!

 

[Andrew Grandahl]

Does anybody have any idea how Eastman grads have fared in orchestra auditions since the change from Oscar Zimmerman to James VanDemark?

Very well. VanDemark is an amazing teacher, if you put in 110%, it will come back to you in full.

 

[Eli_Upright12]

Well, if you're not spending time **Practicing** orchestra parts and Actually Performing orchestra parts IN AN ORCHESTRA, guess what? You're not learning how to play in an orchestra!

You might not realize the differences when you do get to play in an orchestra, but everyone around you *will* notice.... Playing orchestra parts is not about projecting your tone, vibrato and musical idea to the back of the hall, but it's about you *joining* everyone else on stage in making the *same* tone, rhythm, tempo, bowing and musical intent, (and often *not* slow bow, and *not* anywhere close to the bridge - which took me along time to believe and understand after reveling in the glorious sound that Gary help me get).

Gary Karr's gorgeous style and "Orchestra" style really are very different approaches to music making on the bass - and "Orchestra" style just-so-happens to be the approach that classical bass players need to master if they want a paycheck for playing music - even if they're so lucky as to land a university teaching position, their students will also need orchestral "wisdom" in addition to solo skills.

You're lucky to have the "Gary" style under your belt, but consider it as *part* of your Portfolio that you can Use As Needed in orchestra or chamber music; Big, Bold and Beautiful sound is great solo, but when you're One Voice in the "choir" that is The Orchestra, you gotta have a big portfolio of sounds and styles, ... so perhaps the next school or teacher you work with, it's okay to look for someone who has, and teaches, Orchestral experience!

Yeah Ive been playing in the best youth orchestra in the state and I studying etudes and excerpts(such as Mozart 40, Beethoven 5). I do Zimmerman bowing exercises and lots of scales. Its not like Ive been avoid learning to be an orchestral player. I see the Gary style as one more tool in the tool box. I think there are times where it comes into play and also it comes up a lot in chamber music, because of its clarity. I think that for late romantic music playing away from the fingerboard is actually more appropriate than doing everything bouncing like crazy one the fingerboard.

I guess to rephrase the question is there any reason to assume that you cant get an orchestral job from a place like Michigan?
I'm personally think that it doesnt matter as much.

 

[kpo]

Yeah Ive been playing in the best youth orchestra in the state and I studying etudes and excerpts(such as Mozart 40, Beethoven 5). I do Zimmerman bowing exercises and lots of scales. Its not like Ive been avoid learning to be an orchestral player....

I guess to rephrase the question is there any reason to assume that you cant get an orchestral job from a place like Michigan?
I'm personally think that it doesnt matter as much.

Well, Michigan sounds like it has an exciting combination with Diana and Steve, and there's no real reason you "can't" get an orchestra job from any particular place, but -
- it really does matter where you go for school
- gotta get the teacher who is you feel can help you get where you want to go, and
- gotta get the right atmosphere for you - lots of bass players? very few bass players? big city with active orchestra? small city?
Most definitely, gotta get a teacher and colleagues who are doing what *you* want to do and can help you get... THERE.