That is exactly what I said to them, i told them i was worried and mentioned the refund, and they said they were confident in the build "this time around". And that I would have to wait another 8 or so days for an update. The next day I sent another email asking if they could at least tell me where they were at with the build. No reply. That was just a couple days ago.
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What 40HZ says: no threats, especially no legal threats, no links to this post - just ask for all your money back, and you should have done this six months ago minimum.
Now, that being said, small shops are the worst places to do business like this with. They are not businessmen. They're guitar builders. And many of them are simply not mentally equipped to make schedules, hard and fast deadlines, and the needed skill of prioritizing delivery over perfection. So stories like this never surprise me, they're kind of the norm in small builder land, but that doesn't make it OK.
Also: Name the builder. You do nobody any service, least of all them, by letting them remain anonymous.
Now, that being said, small shops are the worst places to do business like this with. They are not businessmen. They're guitar builders. And many of them are simply not mentally equipped to make schedules, hard and fast deadlines, and the needed skill of prioritizing delivery over perfection. So stories like this never surprise me, they're kind of the norm in small builder land, but that doesn't make it OK.
Also: Name the builder. You do nobody any service, least of all them, by letting them remain anonymous.
Interesting convo. I started building custom basses a couple of years ago. I've also had a few custom biz experiences (on both sides of the fence) in my 62 years of life. My constant throughout has been to build in enough extra time when giving a completion date to a customer. If delays occur, typically there is ample time to compensate and still deliver on time. Yet, I can understand extraordinary circumstances that might push the date a bit. Absolute best case is to always deliver a little early - everyone is happy.
Now, the questions I ask are: What were the expectations for delivery? Were the specifics of your build in writing? How well has the builder communicated and provided photo documentation? Have you met your end of the bargain (i.e., making payments as detailed in your original agreement)? Has money been exchanged? How much? Have you documented/tracked your communication and grievances? Etc. I'm sure you see what I'm saying...things that occur in a pro business environment and endeavor.
If all is "up to snuff" otherwise, and the builder has simply been irresponsible and unprofessional, my opin is you have every right to request a full refund and terminate the build agreement if you choose to. At that point, the builder needs to honor your request and simply call it a bad deal. You, on the other hand as the customer, have the option to provide honest feedback (of some sort) to the public regarding your experience. At least that's how I'd play it... no need for threats of exposure or otherwise. It's business, not personal.
Now, the questions I ask are: What were the expectations for delivery? Were the specifics of your build in writing? How well has the builder communicated and provided photo documentation? Have you met your end of the bargain (i.e., making payments as detailed in your original agreement)? Has money been exchanged? How much? Have you documented/tracked your communication and grievances? Etc. I'm sure you see what I'm saying...things that occur in a pro business environment and endeavor.
If all is "up to snuff" otherwise, and the builder has simply been irresponsible and unprofessional, my opin is you have every right to request a full refund and terminate the build agreement if you choose to. At that point, the builder needs to honor your request and simply call it a bad deal. You, on the other hand as the customer, have the option to provide honest feedback (of some sort) to the public regarding your experience. At least that's how I'd play it... no need for threats of exposure or otherwise. It's business, not personal.
I had ordered a custom pair of mountain bikes shoes from a local guy once. He said 3 month wait, paid up front. I was getting a tough pair of leather shoes with vibram soles.
After excuses and 6 months comes to find out he doesn't have money because he used my money to build backlog shoes. He was a sinking ship but was happy to take my money. I finally got a pair of shoes from him but he put 'light weight' carbon soles in them (I wanted tough heavy duty shoes) which ended up cracking within a month. He was out of business.
I love to support small guys but it's tough, gotta make sure they are trusted and do good work. If they have messed up twice and taken 3 times as long as the initial wait period I'd grab my money and run. (I'm sure you paid a lot more for a bass than I did for shoes.
Dude...I hate to be the bearer of bad news but your money is gone. The evasion tactics of your luthier are the same as every worthless POS I have ever chased in the construction industry. Best call the Cochran Law Firm and pursue VIGOROUSLY to get your dough back and definitely disclose name and address of said builder for all TB members to be BUYER BEWARE ready.....
So I just sent this message to the company:
"I'd like to just go ahead and ask for a refund. You have had more than 15 months to build the bass. Unforseen problems with the build are expected, but letting the time slip so long and not proving regular updates with pictures and status is something that I can't overlook.
You're a nice guy, and I respect you for building one of a kind unique instruments. Unfortunately, I never felt like a valued customer. I know you are very busy, but taking the time provide updates to your customers builds trust. If I can't trust the builder, then I can't trust the product."
"I'd like to just go ahead and ask for a refund. You have had more than 15 months to build the bass. Unforseen problems with the build are expected, but letting the time slip so long and not proving regular updates with pictures and status is something that I can't overlook.
You're a nice guy, and I respect you for building one of a kind unique instruments. Unfortunately, I never felt like a valued customer. I know you are very busy, but taking the time provide updates to your customers builds trust. If I can't trust the builder, then I can't trust the product."
Sounds good. Very calm and non confrontational, but exact and to the point
In my experience, at least half the builders are are not trustworthy when it comes to even getting reasonably close to within the estimated build times that they give. Delivering on time seems to be the exception rather than the rule.
Man...you're a lot nicer than I would be...and I'm sorry to say that I believe more forceful tone and tactics may be in order. Good business does not have ALOT of gray area...its pretty cut and dried and that's why it runs like good business. You're situation looks like nothing but bad business from your luthier. I hate to be so negative but it looks all bad from here. Prep for battle and brace for impact.
In January of 2014 I ordered a 'custom' bass to be built. I knew the builder 'prefers' to sell his USA basses direct but the dealer I ordered from assured me the builder had no issue with his selling to me "indirectly" since he's a good customer for this builder. Since I'd purchased from this dealer previously, I ordered. Possible mistake on my part #1.
Placed the order for a "vintage full sized body" jazz style bass. The builder states a wait time of 8 to 10 months on his web site but I realize that isn't set in stone. Things happen.
11 months later I called the dealer and was told that the builder said they were 'starting to assemble the bass'. About a month later I was told they were going to start the build 'after the holidays'. One year after I ordered, the bass was being assembled. BTW...bass had been paid in full...possible mistake #2 on my part. End of February the bass is 'ready to be shipped'. Builder is 25 miles from where I live and, at first, agreed to drop ship the bass instead of shipping to the mid-west and then having the dealer ship to me. 2 days later the builder insists on shipping to the dealer or 'lowering the profit' the dealer would make. Actually turned out to be a positive for me. I guess the builder wasn't so thrilled about selling thru this dealer.
At this point I don't care how the bass gets to me. Dealer gets the bass, posts a photo and description of the bass on Facebook. The bass I waited 15 months for (and paid for) was the wrong model bass. Dealer had mistakenly ordered the wrong bass even though the deposit document stated otherwise.
Mistakes happen. But, at this price and after waiting 15 months, I don't want this bass since it's not what I ordered and I don't want to reorder from the builder and possibly wait another 15 months or longer.
I made a few inquiries and decided on a bass from a different builder...similar to what I had originally ordered. Told the dealer what price I'd received from another dealer and he came close enough to that price that I agreed to order from him (he had my money)...but the offer was only good (from the other dealer) until the end of March.
Beginning of April I received an email from the dealer that he wanted to cancel the deal, reimburse my money, "cut HIS losses". He told me I could go to the dealer that gave me the original deal...the deal that expired end of March.
He said he would "only make $100 on the sale"...the price HE agreed to 3 weeks earlier. My response was that, under the circumstances: the incorrect order placed by him 15 months ago, the extended wait time for the first bass (more the builder than the dealer), the amount of my money that the dealer has had for over a year, the price agreed to, the loss of the deal/price that I had for the bass from another dealer that was no longer available to me...that he should honor the agreed price and take the slight profit. He had no losses to cut. The only one 'losing' on this deal would be me.
He refunded my money...fastest thing he did. Won't deal with the builder or dealer again.
Placed the order for a "vintage full sized body" jazz style bass. The builder states a wait time of 8 to 10 months on his web site but I realize that isn't set in stone. Things happen.
11 months later I called the dealer and was told that the builder said they were 'starting to assemble the bass'. About a month later I was told they were going to start the build 'after the holidays'. One year after I ordered, the bass was being assembled. BTW...bass had been paid in full...possible mistake #2 on my part. End of February the bass is 'ready to be shipped'. Builder is 25 miles from where I live and, at first, agreed to drop ship the bass instead of shipping to the mid-west and then having the dealer ship to me. 2 days later the builder insists on shipping to the dealer or 'lowering the profit' the dealer would make. Actually turned out to be a positive for me. I guess the builder wasn't so thrilled about selling thru this dealer.
At this point I don't care how the bass gets to me. Dealer gets the bass, posts a photo and description of the bass on Facebook. The bass I waited 15 months for (and paid for) was the wrong model bass. Dealer had mistakenly ordered the wrong bass even though the deposit document stated otherwise.
Mistakes happen. But, at this price and after waiting 15 months, I don't want this bass since it's not what I ordered and I don't want to reorder from the builder and possibly wait another 15 months or longer.
I made a few inquiries and decided on a bass from a different builder...similar to what I had originally ordered. Told the dealer what price I'd received from another dealer and he came close enough to that price that I agreed to order from him (he had my money)...but the offer was only good (from the other dealer) until the end of March.
Beginning of April I received an email from the dealer that he wanted to cancel the deal, reimburse my money, "cut HIS losses". He told me I could go to the dealer that gave me the original deal...the deal that expired end of March.
He said he would "only make $100 on the sale"...the price HE agreed to 3 weeks earlier. My response was that, under the circumstances: the incorrect order placed by him 15 months ago, the extended wait time for the first bass (more the builder than the dealer), the amount of my money that the dealer has had for over a year, the price agreed to, the loss of the deal/price that I had for the bass from another dealer that was no longer available to me...that he should honor the agreed price and take the slight profit. He had no losses to cut. The only one 'losing' on this deal would be me.
He refunded my money...fastest thing he did. Won't deal with the builder or dealer again.
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Just a matter of opinion, anytime they propose a new delivery date and you agree to it the contract of sale has been modified. Therefore you can make the argument that the clock resets from a payment dispute standpoint. I think you have more recourse in your back pocket should things get worse and you need to go down that path.
Start polite and reasonable. Never be anything but polite and reasonable. But if you don't get the results you want, start the process to dispute on the back end using the most recent agreed to delivery date as the basis of the dispute.
Start polite and reasonable. Never be anything but polite and reasonable. But if you don't get the results you want, start the process to dispute on the back end using the most recent agreed to delivery date as the basis of the dispute.
Be all that as it may be .. for me... 15 months is too long to wait for an instrument.. to each his own.
No offense dude...but I think after all is said and done you won't like him much afterwards.... Sorry..
I was referring to you. I got a good chuckle out of your response. No sugar coating
What's to like about a guy who takes your money and then richards you around?
Edit: ahh. Got it.
Edit: ahh. Got it.
I was referring to billybladez66. Sorry for the confusion
Yeah forgive the assumption but there are a lot of bad business people who make a business of guilting their customers into feeling sorry for/liking them despite terrible products/service. Just making sure that's not what's going on here. And I agree with the people who've said name the company. Regardless of your opinion on whats going on, it is factually happening and might be something that prospective buyers would be happier to know in advance. They might still decide to work with him—everyone has bad days—but it is valuable to have honest testimonials.
I think you should name the builder. If someone here wants to order from him and runs into the same issues, then this builder needs a new career.
A builders reputation is extremly important. This builder has a poor reputation. By not naming him, you are letting other bass players get taken.
Good luck getting your money back.
A builders reputation is extremly important. This builder has a poor reputation. By not naming him, you are letting other bass players get taken.
Good luck getting your money back.
