Origin of odd groups

[gravgaard]

Hello everyone.

I am writing my masters project in music right now about odd note groups, like groups of 3, 5, and 7, 16th notes in 4/4. Does anyone know how where this concept originated from? My own theory is from the classical music, when they started mixing up time signatures, to create the odd feeling. I think; they didn't think about it as a possibility to just group differently in 4/4, and therefor used mixed time signatures in their pieces.

Can anyone confirm some this or enlighten me?

Also who started using it in the modern music? I suppose it has roots in jazz. Probably my google search skills are too bad and it can be found there, but I hope someone has some good answers

 

[BassChuck]

You might consider the folk song research and collections. Bela Bartok and Percy Grainger both did this and based compositions on music that they found. Also folk music from many countries are full of odd meter and odd phrasing. I'm guessing that Western composers wanting that sound tried to fit that idea into more conventional notations (things that they were used to).
Also 'classical' and art composers wanting to create an improv feel and sound to their music would be a good place to start.
Check out Charles Ives' work. His art songs and especially his 4th symphony.
It probably will be difficult to determine who and when it was first used. At the turn of the 20th century there was a great deal of music written to break the bounds of post romantic music.
Good luck, you may have a project that is too difficult and too narrow to fit into the demands of a Master's thesis.

 

[mambo4]

I don't think the OP is looking for odd time signatures.

"mixing time signatures" indicates either polyrhytm or polymeter
Polyrhythms are two different pulses that sync up every bar, like the 2 against 3 Carol of the bells
Polymeter is the same pulse , but played in note groups of different lengths so the down beats phase against each other.

I believe Polymeter is the term you seek. Is there no Danish language term for the concept?
I feel a student of music poised to write a master's thesis ought to know the term.

Google reveals this thread about Invalid Link Removed on some adjective metal forum. It goes at least as far back as the 14th century, it seems.

 

[Bob_Ross]

Polyrhythms are two different pulses that sync up every bar, like the 2 against 3 Carol of the bells
Polymeter is the same pulse , but played in note groups of different lengths so the down beats phase against each other.

I believe Polymeter is the term you seek.

That's funny! I agree with your definitions of polyrhythm and polymeter...but based on OP's statement

odd note groups, like groups of 3, 5, and 7, 16th notes in 4/4.

I believe he's talking about polyrhythms! E.g., 16th-note triplets, quintuplets, or septuplets in 4/4.

In either case I agree that a master's of music candidate should already have those concepts in their vocabulary. :::shrugs:::

 

[Jazz Ad]

Polyrhythms are ubiquitous in traditional music all around the world but quite rare in european classical music that mostly rely on strict even divisions.
The Indonesian Gamelan contains one of the oldest formalized music system, with notations going back to the 13th century and it is very rich in odd time divisions.

 

[Guitalia]

While we're waiting for the OP to clarify what information is being sought (preferably with an example or two of music recordings), can anyone tell me what term would be used to describe James Brown's "I'm Black And I'm Proud"? The singing follows the standard pattern of recurring sets of 4 bars during the verses, but the horns play recurring sets of 5 bars, so everything syncs up only every 20 bars.



"I Don't Want Nobody To Give Me Nothing (Open Up The Door, I'll Get It Myself)" uses the same approach but with sets of 3 bars of music against 4 bars of singing.

 

[gravgaard]

Thank you all for your replies.

Just to clear up things. A master thesis in danish music conservatory educations is not very theoretical. Our education is build on practical experience. Which is why this project isn't about written words, the project is about how you can use odd groups in your playing. And yes, I know what polymeter is and I know what polyrhythm is, and I know how to use them, and I have written about them.
Yes, you use polymetrics when you play odd groups, but how do you count then?

If we have a bar in 4/4 where you play a to groups of 7 16th notes, would you count 2 bars of 7/16 plus 2 16th notes then in 4/4? Most likely not since it's a 4/4. So I suppose it depends how you see it. Would you see it as polymetric or as a group? It doesn't matter how you see it, it sounds the same. Same rhythm just different feel.

Check out Bent Nails with Snarky Puppy, is the song in 7/8 (with bars like this 7/8+7/8+7/8+11/8) or is it in 4/4 with groups of 7?

 

[MattZilla]

I can only speak to my own experiences. As a youth, I was a fan of, but wasn't studying Yes and Pink Floyd. I did enjoy their odd feels as opposed to the 4/4 syrup on pop, rock, and country radio. I began guitar in the early-mid 90s and Guitar World magazine was pretty helpful in pointing out certain techniques and practice methods.

One issue had a Pro Tip, simply for the purpose of strengthening one's sense of rhythm, to work at both fitting five notes in between 4/4 beats (I don't recall if they did or didn't use the word "polyrhythm"), and playing straight quarter or eighth notes in sequences/phrases of five in 4/4; and doing the same with 7s and 9s.

to create the odd feeling.

this, as an opposition to the music which my friends and I found ourselves all loathing, became a goal and odd timing as well as jazzy chord structure became the paints that we used our instruments to brush the air with.

It got spooky that it seemed every week, through the late 90s into the early 00s, all around the planet there kept popping up other "math rock" bands all with the same motive of creating rhythmically abrasive music.

Bands I vaguely but fondly recall: "HORSE the band" "Behold!: The Arctopus" "Fall of Troy". Less vaguely, but also somehow both more popular and more Avant Garde: Mars Volta

I'm sure that at least half of the math-ey bands we came across were as musically illiterate as us, only knowing basic theory and pop/rock/metal/punk classics of the previous three decades, while a few may have had at least one member who intentionally listened to recordings that had no guitar, bass guitar, or drumkit. Surely most of them had to have started as we had- just trying to be creative and not knowing that they were reinventing the tank tracks.


Since then I have become fairly exposed to classical music, the farther reaches of Avant Garde, as well as rhythm-based folk and ritual music from around the world. The question you pose is rather like "who invented oral sex?". Good luck with your thesis.

Edit: reread the op- "who brought it into the modern era?" I doubt there's been a period of the last 200 years where there is a greatly modulating quantity of fans or creators of obscure music; and of that group, no significant quantity change of creators and fans of polyrhythmic or polymertric music.