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Outdoor gig - Use 2 combos or look for a 2x10 cab

tothemax

Supporting Member
Nov 1, 2013
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1,706
Annapolis Area
This summer we have an outdoor gig scheduled in a fairly open area and we don't run the bass through our PA. My normal rig is pretty basic, an Ampeg BA-210v2 and it does everything I need for our regular gigs (pun not intended). The BA210 can't use the full 450w without a cab. We're a 6 piece with a vocalist, keys, 2 guitars, drums, congas/perc., and bass. We play classic rock, R&B, and some prog rock (so shaking the room is not a requirement).

My practice and BU amp is a BA-115v2. So I was wondering if maybe using the two amps together (a/b switch, ???) might be a solution for a bigger sound. The GAS side likes finding a matching 2x10 cab to complete my stage rig. The reality side says the outdoor gigs are pretty rare and it's probably not critical.

Thoughts...
 
Run the bass thru the PA !

@tothemax, same thought, but I'd ask why that's not already what you're doing and what is your pa setup? I think it's worth asking because it's not uncommon for people have misconceptions about the capabilities of PA gear they have.

And running your post through a little bit of if/then-ing makes me wonder if it's not the case that you'd either be fine as-is or that adding some bass to the pa could be done with no problem. If you normally go through the BA-210 and vocals only(?) in the pa, and that works well enough for other things you do, then it's not necessarily the case that it wouldn't work because the other playing situations are indoor and this is outdoor. It could be that any adjustments that are needed are well within the range of your amp and the rest of the band's gear.

I'm going to assume if your normal amp/pa set up is sufficient for other things that you do, then it's sufficient for the audience size and volume that you play...and not in a pejorative way at all, that these are relatively small audiences and that you don't play with anything that could be considered excessive volume. So, is this outdoor gig expected to have a significantly larger audience that what's normal for you?

I've played a number of outdoor shows, including some town summer concert series type things, with maybe 50-75 active listeners with vocals only in the pa. I've also done some where bass, kick and keys were reinforced in very modest pa setups.

One was a show up and play sub gig at the Silver Spring Thursday Night Summer Concerts (I mention because I see you're in MD, so possibly familiar). Anyway this was a secondary stage but still outdoors and not a super small audience. I was kind of surprised that sound wasn't provided, but this band had 2 Behringer 12" or maybe 15" mains and no subs. Everything was in the pa with maybe 2 mics on the drums, and worked just fine.
 
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Appreciate the feedback,

Our FOH PA is a pair of Alto 2500w powered speakers, we normally run the vocals, percussion, and drummers synth module. That setup seems to work pretty well, I always concerned about muddying up the vocals by adding bass. Our keyboard player has a big Leslie cabinet on stage that gets really loud, it would be great to move that out a bit and give him a monitor (we haven't worked that out yet). I'm the new guy and have a larger mixer than they have been using so there is room for some expansion.

This outdoor gig will probably be a few hundred people, outdoor community party (and in the summer, so we have time to plan). There has been some talk about purchasing a sub.

FYI: I have tried the combined amp (master/slave) setup. It seems to work, but I wouldn't feel comfortable working a gig with that setup.
 
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Unless it's already too late quote your price factoring in renting in a proper PA and operator for the job.
Make it easy on yourself, rent a "legit" PA from a provider, tell them when you want to arrive for your load in and sound check, they will have the system set up and ready when you get there, sound check, play the show, give them a check, pack up your stuff and leave.
 
PA is a pair of Alto 2500w powered speakers, we normally run the vocals, percussion, and drummers synth module...

...This outdoor gig will probably be a few hundred people, outdoor community party...

A couple more opinions...

Actually test with the PA, don't worry about things like muddying vocals with bass...they are full range speakers that provide the quality of full range sound they are able to provide up to the level that they're able to provide it. Your speculation might be right, it might not.

And if this really is a few hundred people listening to the band, you should consider hiring sound. I have a couple of people you might contact.

Counting people is tough...a community party in a park that has 200 people attending throughout the day might mean 30-40 actively listening to the band at any given time. The rest might be trying to socialize and otherwise escape noise. People coming to a concert and people coming to a party/park picnic that has a band are different things.
 
Why uncomfortable?

Subs would be nice and would come in handy for both indoor and outdoor gigs.

Riis

1) On the BA-210 it's a dedicated effects loop (Send/Return) and not specified like the larger models as a preamp out/ power amp in. While it worked when I tested the Master\Slave config. I haven't found anything from Ampeg specifically saying this is a "safe" setup for these amp models. I use them both regularly, so hate to take chances.



2) As the new guy, purchasing a sub would be up to the BL (really not something I need to own).

As for hiring a sound system, they did that last year and it was quite expensive. They are trying to avoid that this year.

We'll have a few gigs that we can test things out, so I was reaching out so I can be helpful in the planning stages.
 
I don't know if this will pertain, I have two Phil Jones Bass Double Four combo amps, each 70w. I asked Phil directly how I could hook them together. He said to go from Line Out on one to Aux In on the other, max the Aux volume, that way the first one will control the volume and EQ alone, and will be 140w. See if that's possible with your BA-115v2 amp.
 
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1) On the BA-210 it's a dedicated effects loop (Send/Return) and not specified like the larger models as a preamp out/ power amp in. While it worked when I tested the Master\Slave config. I haven't found anything from Ampeg specifically saying this is a "safe" setup for these amp models. I use them both regularly, so hate to take chances.



2) As the new guy, purchasing a sub would be up to the BL (really not something I need to own).

As for hiring a sound system, they did that last year and it was quite expensive. They are trying to avoid that this year.

We'll have a few gigs that we can test things out, so I was reaching out so I can be helpful in the planning stages.


From the manual...just as a reference for others:

"16. EFFECTS SEND: Use this 1/4" TS (unbalanced) output to send a line level signal to an external effects processor, for example. The output here is affected by all controls except the Aux Level. Use the effects Return jack to feed the returned processed signals back into the power amplifier - see item 17 (BA-115, and BA-210)"

I can appreciate the safety concerns and maybe others will comment / clarify.

Riis
 
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This summer we have an outdoor gig scheduled in a fairly open area and we don't run the bass through our PA. My normal rig is pretty basic, an Ampeg BA-210v2 and it does everything I need for our regular gigs (pun not intended). The BA210 can't use the full 450w without a cab. We're a 6 piece with a vocalist, keys, 2 guitars, drums, congas/perc., and bass. We play classic rock, R&B, and some prog rock (so shaking the room is not a requirement).

My practice and BU amp is a BA-115v2. So I was wondering if maybe using the two amps together (a/b switch, ???) might be a solution for a bigger sound. The GAS side likes finding a matching 2x10 cab to complete my stage rig. The reality side says the outdoor gigs are pretty rare and it's probably not critical.

Thoughts...
Best Solution:
Running two 210 cabs is the right and most expensive choice and gives you a modular set-up where you can take what you need when you need it, but not lug along unneeded weight when you it's not necessary. However, you may be able to take advantage of the 115 you already have.

A possible solution Using speaker connections:
***NOTE*** After writing the info below on using speaker connections I checked on your BA115 and there is no access to the speaker or a jack to hook up to the speaker, so it's not really a moot point for you. I'd suggest you skip to the section dealing with running a slave amp.****

If your 115 combo hooks up the amp from the combo with a jack to the speakers, you may be able to unplug that speaker from the jack and plug it into your 210. You'll probably need a 1/4" dual female adapter because the cord coming from the speaker cabinet is usually too short to plug into anything else. So plug the short speaker cord into one of the female ends of the adapter and a longer (but not excessively long) speaker cord into the other female end of the adapter, finally plugging the lengthened connection into the output of your BA210 amp. Do NOT use an instrument cord for this connection, if MUST be a speaker cord! That will put a 4Ω load on your amp and the full 450-watts to be split equally between the two cabs. A 450-watt 115+210 rig should do the job just fine just about anywhere.

Another solution running the 115 as a slave amp:
Another option would be to slave your 115 to your 210. This method sends the preamp signal from your master amp (RB210) into the effects-in/return of your slave amp. This bypasses the preamp in the slave amp and sends the preamp signal from the master amp directly to the power section of the slave amp. When you hook up a slave amp to the master amp, every EQ change you make is carried through to the slave amp, but volume changes are not. So after adjusting the volume on each to the blend of 210/115 you want, if you change the volume on the master, you'll also have to change the volume on the slave to maintain the blend you want.

You can set that up by running an "instrument cord" from the effects-out/send of the master amp (RB210) to the effects-in/return of the slave amp (115). That will send the preamp signal from your RB210 to the power section of the 115. With some amps you will need to run a "Y" cord on that connection so you can send that effects-out signal not only out to the slave amp, but also back into the effects-in of the RB2105. On some amps if you don't run a line from the effects/out to the effects-in, it will work fine without running a line back into the master amp because it's designed not to break that original preamp signal unless there's a plug in the effects-return/in jack. On others you have to run a cord back into the effects-return/in of the master amp to complete the effects loop so the master amp gets the same signal back that it's sending to the slave...afraid it's just trial and error to find which way yours works.

When running a slave amp that's actually two combos, you are limited to whatever the amount of power is that those combos put out to their internal speakers on their own. It does NOT influence the ohms load on the master or slave amp at all. Be aware also that your BA-115v2 amp will put out a max of 150-watts as-is while your RB210 will put out a max of 250-watts at 8Ω. So your BA-115 is not capable of running as loud as your 210, but it still should be enough. In my opinion that's not as good as running two 210's when needed, but it is a LOT less expensive solution until you can afford to get a 210 extension speaker for your RB210.
 
Best Solution:
Running two 210 cabs is the right and most expensive choice and gives you a modular set-up where you can take what you need when you need it, but not lug along unneeded weight when you it's not necessary. However, you may be able to take advantage of the 115 you already have.

Another solution running the 115 as a slave amp:
Another option would be to slave your 115 to your 210. This method sends the preamp signal from your master amp (RB210) into the effects-in/return of your slave amp. This bypasses the preamp in the slave amp and sends the preamp signal from the master amp directly to the power section of the slave amp. When you hook up a slave amp to the master amp, every EQ change you make is carried through to the slave amp, but volume changes are not. So after adjusting the volume on each to the blend of 210/115 you want, if you change the volume on the master, you'll also have to change the volume on the slave to maintain the blend you want.

You can set that up by running an "instrument cord" from the effects-out/send of the master amp (RB210) to the effects-in/return of the slave amp (115). That will send the preamp signal from your RB210 to the power section of the 115. With some amps you will need to run a "Y" cord on that connection so you can send that effects-out signal not only out to the slave amp, but also back into the effects-in of the RB2105. On some amps if you don't run a line from the effects/out to the effects-in, it will work fine without running a line back into the master amp because it's designed not to break that original preamp signal unless there's a plug in the effects-return/in jack. On others you have to run a cord back into the effects-return/in of the master amp to complete the effects loop so the master amp gets the same signal back that it's sending to the slave...afraid it's just trial and error to find which way yours works.

When running a slave amp that's actually two combos, you are limited to whatever the amount of power is that those combos put out to their internal speakers on their own. It does NOT influence the ohms load on the master or slave amp at all. Be aware also that your BA-115v2 amp will put out a max of 150-watts as-is while your RB210 will put out a max of 250-watts at 8Ω. So your BA-115 is not capable of running as loud as your 210, but it still should be enough. In my opinion that's not as good as running two 210's when needed, but it is a LOT less expensive solution until you can afford to get a 210 extension speaker for your RB210.

Great info, thanks... I'll be keeping my eye out for a deal on a matching 8 ohm 2x10 cab. The takeaway is that we have options...
 
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This summer we have an outdoor gig scheduled in a fairly open area and we don't run the bass through our PA. My normal rig is pretty basic, an Ampeg BA-210v2 and it does everything I need for our regular gigs (pun not intended). The BA210 can't use the full 450w without a cab. We're a 6 piece with a vocalist, keys, 2 guitars, drums, congas/perc., and bass. We play classic rock, R&B, and some prog rock (so shaking the room is not a requirement).

My practice and BU amp is a BA-115v2. So I was wondering if maybe using the two amps together (a/b switch, ???) might be a solution for a bigger sound. The GAS side likes finding a matching 2x10 cab to complete my stage rig. The reality side says the outdoor gigs are pretty rare and it's probably not critical.

Thoughts...

SVT810.
 
I would try both combos, unless you are looking for an excuse to buy a cab :rolleyes:.

The BA115V2 is 150W.

The BA210V2 is 283W with the internal speakers and 450W when you add an extension cab. The power increases 167W.

Whether you will get more volume from adding the BA115 or a second cab depend on how efficient each set of speakers is and how well they integrate. The decibel difference between 150W and 167W is <0.5dB, which is considered insignificant.
 
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This summer we have an outdoor gig scheduled in a fairly open area and we don't run the bass through our PA. My normal rig is pretty basic, an Ampeg BA-210v2 and it does everything I need for our regular gigs (pun not intended). The BA210 can't use the full 450w without a cab. We're a 6 piece with a vocalist, keys, 2 guitars, drums, congas/perc., and bass. We play classic rock, R&B, and some prog rock (so shaking the room is not a requirement).

My practice and BU amp is a BA-115v2. So I was wondering if maybe using the two amps together (a/b switch, ???) might be a solution for a bigger sound. The GAS side likes finding a matching 2x10 cab to complete my stage rig. The reality side says the outdoor gigs are pretty rare and it's probably not critical.

Thoughts...

One fairly cheap solution is to use an effects pedal that has stereo outputs. Something like a Boss stereo chorus, Zoom MS60b, etc. You don’t have to even engage the pedal…just use an output to each amp.