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Outdoor show with no PA support

R

rpsands

Jul 6, 2007
9,930
63
#1
I've got an outdoor gig coming up, and we may (not sure yet) not have enough PA on hand to run bass through it at convincing volumes (due to circumstances beyond our control). That said, I have plenty enough rig to run any show but as of yet I have not had to run my without PA support in a situation like this, and was wondering if anyone had suggestions on rig placement.

I'll be taking my 3080 and fEarful and probably running each off of one side of my power amp, might just run the fEarful because we've got something like a 115db noise limit or something (though I'm not sure how that's measured).

The question is, where do I put my rig? Up front next to the subs + mains? I believe we're going to have one JBL 115 powered sub and a set of 4 Bose subs that have to be enough to run the kick and whatever drums and vocals make it down that low (no idea here). I know from experience that the Bose subs do not like my bass tone and will not put it out at any meaningful volume.

Any suggestions welcomed :) We might wind up having to buy some more gear, but I'd like to avoid it, and know where to put my stuff in any case.
 
#5
Dude, sorry to say but you are doomed to fail with the current P.A. set-up. Do whatever you have to do to get some more watts and subs into the equation.

Outdoor gigs demand enormous wattage and many subs to get bass across with any authority whatsoever. And the fact that Bose gear is in the mix only makes it worse... they suck for bass as you already noted.

And believe me, with the current P.A., you won't have to worry about the dB limit. You won't even get close.
 
#6
I do this all the time. Just put as much bass as you can in the PA. Even if it's not a ton it will still help cover the area. And I usually just put my rig right where it always goes (behind me next to the drummer). Sound outdoors will kind of spread quickly so it shouldn't blow you away to be right in front of your rig. I run an Ampeg with the 8-10 and it usually does fine. And if it doesn't cover all that great, it's the problem of whomever organized the event, not yours. Be it the event planner, or somebody in your band who booked this show, SOMEBODY should have planned for this. The Bose subs should be able to handle at least a little of your bass tone, so again, you may just want to put whatever you think it will handle through the PA. Unless this is an outdoor theatre, people will be talking, coming in an out, taking part in other stuff going on out there, etc. You probably won't be required to cover two acres with pounding bass anyway. Good luck!
 
#7
Unless this is a concert situation, where you need a forceful bass tone 200 feet back, you will be just fine.

I play outdoor gigs ALL THE TIME with a 410, 500 watts, and no PA support. You can EASILY cover the dancefloor with no problem if you are in a 'street festival' or 'private party' type situation. If you are also in an 'outside' situation with a building behind you and some concrete under you, then it really is no different than playing inside (other than it will sound a lot better without the sound bouncing around in a room!). If you are playing on an elevated stage with nothing behind you or around you, then it is a little tougher, but again, still no problem for the type of gigs I describe.

Just put your amp where you typically put it, and enjoy.

If this is more of a 1000 person + listening situation where you really have to cover a large listening space, then shame on the promotor for not supplying an adequate PA. However, for most 'street party' and 'private' type gigs, the audience will appreciate a full, loud sound out to the end of the dance floor, and then a drop-off for people who want to get away from it.

IMO, and years and years of IMO, both playing and listening to bands in similar situations.
 
#8
i have to agree with kj, unless it's huge.....you'll be ok. technically the bass cab is supposed to be in the same plane as the front of the kick but i never worry about that. usually i'm slightly behind the drummer or in a plane with where he/she sits so they can hear it a bit.

what you've left out is what the tops of the pa are and what kind of wattage you're running thru that. I'd be a lot more worried about vocals. outside some crappier cabs and powered mixers fall short, although many of the better ones do surprisingly well if you're just running vocals (and maybe some high passed guitars/keys)
 
#9
When you get down to it the problems you're facing are the promoter's, not yours. Your job is to sound as good as you can on the stage, his is to take care of the rest. Not worth losing sleep over. But if he screws up the works keep that in mind before taking another gig from him.
 
#11
I will share a recent personal experience...

Subbed for 12-piece horn band a few weekends ago playing a college football tailgate party. The P.A. for that gig was 4 powered Mackie Subs each topped by a Mackie 2-way powered cab (i.e., two "stacks" on each side of the stage). I don't know the total wattage. I was a little apprehensive that we were underequipped but it seemed to be OK. In fact, I was amazed at the amount of low-end that seemed to be going out front.

On stage I used my Hartke 3500 and 410 XL cabinet. I set up my rig immediately to the left of my drummer firing straight ahead (traditional R&R setup), and just behind the depth of his throne. I was able to hear as much of me as I needed, even with full drums, aux percussion, two electric guitars and multi vocalists and a 4-piece horn section.

EDIT: Just to clarify, ALL instruments (including bass and drums) were running through this system.
 
#12
You have to accept that in some situations there are some limitations. If it were me, I'd place my rig 'normally' and then focus on the stage mix understanding that outdoor's, what you are hearing is going to carry a bit. What the band has to do is to keep the overall volume, including the PA in line. What you can't do is play blistering loud on stage to make the bass try to keep up with the PA - that just screws with the stage mix and near guarantees a bad performance. Better good performance at achievable volume than a bad loud one ...

From a practical stand point 115db isn't all that loud. WinISd tells me tht one of my 3015, 2.6 cu boxes will get to 122 with about 300 watts betwen 50 & 60 hz. I've run them as sub's under my JBL tops. I put them on a QSC poweramp and set the 50 hz filter on. You guys might try something similar to get the low end mix more 'integrated'.

Eventually the PA's that most of us can own are going to run out of gas outdoors - mine sure will. It is important to recognize that and to run it within it's limits. Folks that want to hear, will move down front if it's a party / dancing scenario.

Alternatively, you could run the fEarful, as an extension cab out front, in the same plane as the tops and use a second smaller cab as stage monitor. If there is a guy mixing out front that can give you good guidance on the mix then you should be able to control it from stage. If not you need some trusted soul out front at sound check. One advantage is that this put's the bass closer to in phase with the tops. If the tops are way out front with a deep stage scenario, that might make a difference right there.

Nothing we don't all deal with every gig, just a larger scale version of the issue, no ?
 
#13
I wouldn't worry about trying to achieve the same sound outdoors that you're used to hearing indoors. Irrespective of the venue, IMO it's always a good idea to go for the best on-stage mix you can achieve and treat FOH as a separate issue; if my band mates aren't happy with what they hear on stage, it's unlikely that we'll sound good in the audience.
 
#14
JimmyM said:
Can you rent a bigger PA inexpensively?
Click to expand...

standupright said:
i'm in phoenix

what venue are you looking to fill.

i might be able to help out.
Click to expand...

This is The District at Tempe Marketplace.

I've checked into renting PAs and all that and we can rent a single sub + with power amp for the cost of half of what we get paid just about, or we can get someone to run our sound for around the same price, either way - not worth it for a thursday night.
 
#16
115db is I believe the audience listening limit, so a 120db cab on stage is going to translate to a lot less than that after you get 50-100 feet from it I think. Not really sure how that works exactly.

We've got four 1x15 + horns and the kit to pole mount them, as well as the Bose stick, and a powered JBL sub. Plenty of PA amp to push it all, just worried about how placement is going to work and want to ensure we get no phase cancellations or whatever.

In this case, we are the promoter pretty much.

I guess where this comes from is my experience in practice and at other folks shows that if you have a bass cab too far from the PA mains you sometimes get dead spots. No idea of the science behind it.

Thanks for the input folks, think we'll probably just wind up carting everything down there early, setting up and seeing how it goes. I must say I already hate running our own sound :P
 
#18
greenboy said:
If someone hires a band I'm in to do outdoors, they either supply PA or make it worth my while to do so, or take what they get.

The main issue for outdoors is that styles of music that have big low end for kick and bass require about twice as much subwoofer SPL as otherwise.
Click to expand...

Yeah, right now that's the boat I am in - not willing to drop tons of money on a thursday night outdoor show, so just going to make it work with what we've got. We've got more than enough kit for any indoor show I can think of, but we're just light on subs because the drummer and I can both normally do low end - he's got his powered sub and I've got my rig(s).
 
#19
The real question I was getting at is whether I should put my rig out front or on stage next to the drummer where it normally is - to avoid any cancellation. Or should I run my 3080 out front and the fEarful back next to me as a monitor or something.

I think there was one suggestion in there kinda similar to that so I might try setting it up like that.

The big problem with the bose is 4 bose subs start distorting at relatively low volumes if you hit a low D, and we have one song with a lot of D. And the singer is gunshy of running kick through it as well at the necessary volumes.
 
#20
Generally I like all subwoofers within 1/4 wavelength of each other based on the crossover point chosen. In practical terms that means all of them right next to each other, not on opposite ends of a stage. And when I'm playing with good PA subwoofer support I roll off my low end so as not to be making excessive cancellation. But in this case I almost say forget FOH subs and get all your LF stuff right where you are unless your stage is raised much.

Regardless of one's opinion of the Bose sticks, those Bose subs are a joke, unfortunately. One 12" subwoofer like the fEarful 12sub can clobber what you have there.
 

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