Outdoor show with no PA support

[rpsands]

That's exactly what I was looking for. Thanks man.

We DO have (I checked) a powered JBL JRX118 that will be for kick, but last time we played there we had a pair of Carvin 1x18s driven by a PLX2402 our PA guy had, and it was still barely sufficient for kick drum in that big area.

You don't think there will be any time-alignment issue having my rig 10-15 feet behind the PA mains, eh? That's another area of live sound I am clueless about.

I think last time we might have actually been closer to 20 feet back, but I'm not really sure from memory.

 

[JimmyM]

If someone hires a band I'm in to do outdoors, they either supply PA or make it worth my while to do so, or take what they get.

Ya, between this and Ken's reply, this is basically the best thing to do. I would never buy more stuff for a one-off, nor would I sacrifice half the band's pay to rent. I would do the best I can, and chances are it'll be great.

 

[billfitzmaurice]

The real question I was getting at is whether I should put my rig out front or on stage next to the drummer where it normally is - to avoid any cancellation.

The entire PA must be delayed to time align it with the backline at a rate of 1ms/foot. When the room is a bar and the PA is perhaps ten feet in front of the backline and there are multiple boundaries it's fairly moot, though better PA operators will still time align. Outdoors a fifteen or twenty foot differential between the backline and PA is clearly audible, especially with no boundary reflections, and mainly in the midrange, not the bass. The drums suffer the worst, with 'double hits' the result of failure to time align.

Just as with bars and clubs major outdoor gigs will pay well and supply a good PA. Those with no budget pay crap and expect you to supply the PA in the bargain. That's just the way this business works. Everyone wants to be out there and get some exposure; sometimes it's worth it, sometimes not.

 

[peterpalmieri]

115db is I believe the audience listening limit, so a 120db cab on stage is going to translate to a lot less than that after you get 50-100 feet from it I think. Not really sure how that works exactly.

We've got four 1x15 + horns and the kit to pole mount them, as well as the Bose stick, and a powered JBL sub. Plenty of PA amp to push it all, just worried about how placement is going to work and want to ensure we get no phase cancellations or whatever.

In this case, we are the promoter pretty much.

I guess where this comes from is my experience in practice and at other folks shows that if you have a bass cab too far from the PA mains you sometimes get dead spots. No idea of the science behind it.

Thanks for the input folks, think we'll probably just wind up carting everything down there early, setting up and seeing how it goes. I must say I already hate running our own sound

I am curious to know why you have 4 1x15s on poles and only 1 sub? That seems to be pretty unbalanced. Is it possible to run those cabs full range? And whats the deal with the Bose are those running the FOH mix too?

Whatever you decide I side with Ken set up as normal and do your thing the bass will carry and the people that want to hear it will come closer to the stage anyway.

 

[greenboy]

Before I got DSP SMS (Speaker Management System) I usually had Rane crossovers which gave you some delay for time alignment, though I don't recall how much now. Rane has always been a good on R&D and support/education.

Their definitions entry for coupling or mutual coupling is fairly comprehensive and mentions seminal sources: [Invalid or Expired Link Removed] (about 3/4 of the down).

 

[billfitzmaurice]

I am curious to know why you have 4 1x15s on poles and only 1 sub? That seems to be pretty unbalanced.

Typically they bought the 1x15 tops thinking that fifteens are better than twelves, and eventually added the sub when they proved inadequate on the low end. They should have bought 1x12 or even 1x10 tops, and subs at least on a 1:1 ratio to go with them, but very few PA newbies do enough research on how to assemble a good PA system before buying one.

 

[greenboy]

Running LF through mains on sticks - even if they can handle some real lows - is often a recipe for disaster anyway. You have them off the ground at a 1/4 wavelength distance that can cause big cancellation at essential frequencies, and separated by distance (unless you cluster/stack) that will do more. Indoors it's even more a good way to blow drivers because you usually have a 1/4-wave cancellation distance from the ceiling.

 

[greenboy]

Typically they bought the 1x15 tops thinking that fifteens are better than twelves, and eventually added the sub when they proved inadequate on the low end. They should have bought 1x12 or even 1x10 tops, and subs at least on a 1:1 ratio to go with them, but very few PA newbies do enough research on how to assemble a good PA system before buying one.

Yeah, very few of the club-level 15" 2-way mains cross to the horn low enough or have a good enough horn/waveguide. JBL and Peavey have actually been better than most about this even in their more affordable stuff, but there's plenty of gear that looks similar enough but has no design similarities whatsoever, and newbies don't know what to look for even when good datasheets with polars and the like are available.

 

[peterpalmieri]

Running LF through mains on sticks - even if they can handle some real lows - is often a recipe for disaster anyway. You have them off the ground at a 1/4 wavelength distance that can cause big cancellation at essential frequencies, and separated by distance (unless you cluster/stack) that will do more. Indoors it's even more a good way to blow drivers because you usually have a 1/4-wave cancellation distance from the ceiling.

It would seem to me putting those 1x15s on the ground and running them full range stacked two high on each side might be better then 4 tops and one sub.

GB or Bill you guys are the experts is there something he could do to reconfigure the PA to get more out of it for this one gig? maybe crossing over a pair of 15s and using them as subs on the ground?

 

[rpsands]

Typically they bought the 1x15 tops thinking that fifteens are better than twelves, and eventually added the sub when they proved inadequate on the low end. They should have bought 1x12 or even 1x10 tops, and subs at least on a 1:1 ratio to go with them, but very few PA newbies do enough research on how to assemble a good PA system before buying one.

Actually, we have two 15 / horn mains we use in practice that the singer's had for years, and one of our guitar players has two more he offered to help fill out the PA for the show.

We don't have subs because when we run our own PA it's always indoors and the Bose + the powered sub is sufficient on the occasion we don't have house support.

I know enough to research, trust me I've only been around for six months or so.

 

[PBass101]

Typically they bought the 1x15 tops thinking that fifteens are better than twelves, and eventually added the sub when they proved inadequate on the low end. They should have bought 1x12 or even 1x10 tops, and subs at least on a 1:1 ratio to go with them, but very few PA newbies do enough research on how to assemble a good PA system before buying one.

You just described me and my bandmates. At least we're learning now. Well, me and the guitar player, anyway.

 

[unbridled]

Unless I missed it, it sounds like you are mixing from the stage?? If so, have a "mole" in the audience who has ears you trust. Set up normally and focus on your stage mix so you can give the best performance possible. If someone is mixing FOH, don't send them the usual 100 feet out because you'll need to focus on the mix a little closer to the stage. As a listener who isn't paying big money for a "concert," it actually sounds like a pleasant set-up. Being able to move up front for the times when I want to party and be totally into the music, or be able to move back a bit if I want to visit with friends sounds really nice, but I'm old and what do I know.

 

[greenboy]

It would seem to me putting those 1x15s on the ground and running them full range stacked two high on each side might be better then 4 tops and one sub.

It's not that great to run LF sources separated in front, as mentioned earlier.

But two of the 2-way 15" cabs might have better woofers than the other set (or not) and might be pressed into service as whimpy weak subwoofers all grouped in one place (usually the boxes are too small and the drivers wrong to truly function well below 80 Hz though). That might help one limp by if they don't conflict in phase response with the Bozos, er, Bose.

But if the kick is already covered with its own powered sub onstage, and the bass rig is good maybe this is all a waste of effort anyway, for very little return. Especially since I don't think dedicated delay line or SMS is part of the system ; }

 

[rpsands]

Here's an inventory of what's on hand if it helps!

JBL JRX118Sp powered sub
Two 10" Mackie powered monitors
Two Yamaha 1x12 + horn passive traps
Two Yamaha 1x15 + horn (250w I think) mains, trapezoids
Two Peavey 1x15 + horn (scorpions IIRC) mains
Bose L1 with the PA + 4 of the subs
QSC RMX1450
QSC PLX3002
Mackie 406FM & 808 powered mixers

I can loan my Dr. Bass 3080 for subs if need be. My intention was to use crossover on either the Bose or the JRX to handle that aspect.

So chain is something like -
Drum mics (condenser, kick and snare) -> 406FM -> Mixer out -> Bose
Vocal mics -> 808 -> Mixer out -> Bose
Guitar combo mics -> Bose

Bose highs, powered -> L1 Stick
Bose highs, line -> RMX1450 -> Mains
Bose lows, powered -> Bose subs
Bose lows, line -> JRX 118sp
Mackie 808 monitor amps -> two 1x12 traps for on stage vocal monitoring

I'm hoping that the Bose has a delay function so we can just get all the time aligning done there.

Really no clue how the best way to lay out the speakers would be

 

[rpsands]

Wow, I hadn't thought of just putting the powered sub on stage with the kick, and running vocals + guitar only out front. We could even just bring extension cabs for both of the guitar players if need be.

Guitar amps we're looking at one guy with a Fender 1x12 blues deville and the other with a Fender 212 blues deville, no idea whether that'd be loud enough without mic'ing, but we have three 4x12s on hand that could be pressed into service

Ugh, reminds me, I don't think the drums' cymbals would be loud enough without amplification, so we do need those in the PA as well.

 

[rpsands]

Unless I missed it, it sounds like you are mixing from the stage?? If so, have a "mole" in the audience who has ears you trust. Set up normally and focus on your stage mix so you can give the best performance possible. If someone is mixing FOH, don't send them the usual 100 feet out because you'll need to focus on the mix a little closer to the stage. As a listener who isn't paying big money for a "concert," it actually sounds like a pleasant set-up. Being able to move up front for the times when I want to party and be totally into the music, or be able to move back a bit if I want to visit with friends sounds really nice, but I'm old and what do I know.

Thankfully we have hours ahead of time to mix everything down, but we have to mix it ourselves and get it set ahead of time. We will DEFINITELY have ears out in the audience.

 

[greenboy]

You still haven't mentioned how high the stage is.

 

[rpsands]

Stage is stepped, about 3 feet high total with a 1.5 foot step (roughly) out front.

 

[Stumbo]

How about creating 2 separate p.a's? one for all the drums/cymbols (with the sub), the other for vocals/guitar. Then run the bass with both cabs, one out front with the PA and one for stage volume, maybe pointed across the stage instead of facing outward.

If each p.a. is clean, it seems to me that it will sound better FOH.

I also suggest you tilt back your cab to better hear yourself. I can't count the times that, from a distance, the bass is overwhelming the rest of the band while the on stage volume seems okay.

 

[jaywa]

If someone hires a band I'm in to do outdoors, they either supply PA or make it worth my while to do so, or take what they get.

Exactly. My band got offered an outdoor gig, we knew the area we would have to cover and so we upped our asking price by 50% over normal (to cover renting additional P.A.), or told them we'd do it for x amount and they would have to hire production themselves. They said no to both and hired another (not as good) band for less $$. So we lost the gig but that's fine with me cause with the P.A. we had it would not have been a good time and/or we would have had to rent extra and then we wouldn't have made enough to make it worthwhile.