Output level differences between DiMarzio P and Js

[basscapes]

I have a set of DiMarzio DP123 (the regular J-set) in my Yamaha BBN-4 bass.

The instrument has sounded great for years (had them in there for 20+ now).

Recently, I installed a DiMarzio DP-122 (regular Model P) into my P-bass clone (about 2 months old now).

I have a serious volume difference between the two instruments; one that I have never heard with either DiMarzio PUP before- the P-bass actually overloads the input of my Ampeg SCR-DI (and I apologize to all those whom I claimed I never heard that issue happen; i guess it really does happen!); so much so that I have to use the -15db internal jumper now.

This now means that my Yamaha is now, that's right- too quiet! I have to use my MXR M81 preamp to get the level up to the same as the p-bass (something like a good 8 to 10 db!).

So my question is two-fold;

1. While DiMarzio lists the J-set as having 150mv output, and the P as having 163mv, there shouldn't be THAT MUCH of an output level difference, should there?

2. Do pickups really start to "lose it" after so many years? If so, I might need to "update" good old Yammy again...

BTW, all of the controls (save for a PUP selector toggle on the Yamaha) are similar- the P-bass uses a pair of 250K CTS pots for volume and tone (with an orange drop tone cap). The Yamaha uses a pair of the same value CTS pots for volume and tone. Both basses have series/parallel switching as well (and yes, it's all wired "correctly")...

 

[Slater]

The Model Js in series should be able to keep up with the Model P. If they don’t, something’s not right. Do you have a multimeter to check the DC resistance of the pickups?

 

[spaceatl]

I am curious if the new P clips in series vs parallel? If everything with DC resistance seems ok, maybe running a bit further away from the strings would help? Perhaps it's a bit too close for the situation?

 

[symbolic_acts]

basic silly question

is the string height even between them?

 

[basscapes]

The Model Js in series should be able to keep up with the Model P. If they don’t, something’s not right. Do you have a multimeter to check the DC resistance of the pickups?

I will be getting to the root cause (hopefully) in the next little bit.

Funny though- I've never noticed a tonal problem with regards to the Yamaha; it has always sounded at the very least, great (and still does!).

 

[basscapes]

I am curious if the new P clips in series vs parallel? If everything with DC resistance seems ok, maybe running a bit further away from the strings would help? Perhaps it's a bit too close for the situation?

Yeah, I'll checking the DC resistance and such. The P-bass does clip the SCR-DI in the louder of two settings. However, both settings are still louder than the Yamaha with the J set.

I've actually got the J-set as close as is "playably" possible to the strings, while the P in the "FrankenP" is actually set back from the strings to allow for a bit more body resonance, if that makes sense.

 

[basscapes]

basic silly question

is the string height even between them?

Actually, the PUP is farther away on the P than the J-set is on the Yamaha.

 

[spaceatl]

Actually, the PUP is farther away on the P than the J-set is on the Yamaha.

There is a point with pickups where the volume will drop very quickly when running further away. I am thinking you could try lowering it a bit more if your goal is to level the two basses and stop the clipping. Sometimes an 1/8 of a turn is all the difference in matching pickup levels. Do you use heavy strings? Maybe that is part of what is in play here?

 

[craigie]

Dimarzio sells them together as the DP251 set. I have a set in my PJ and find the J doesn’t quite keep up with the P. I think it would be generally true of P and J pickups. I read quite an interesting thread about PJ’s and some guys have put in a lot of work to find a balanced set.

p.s. the poles are adjustable with an Allen key

 

[Old Garage-Bander]

I have a set of DiMarzio DP123 (the regular J-set) in my Yamaha BBN-4 bass.

The instrument has sounded great for years (had them in there for 20+ now).

Recently, I installed a DiMarzio DP-122 (regular Model P) into my P-bass clone (about 2 months old now).

I have a serious volume difference between the two instruments; one that I have never heard with either DiMarzio PUP before- the P-bass actually overloads the input of my Ampeg SCR-DI (and I apologize to all those whom I claimed I never heard that issue happen; i guess it really does happen!); so much so that I have to use the -15db internal jumper now.

This now means that my Yamaha is now, that's right- too quiet! I have to use my MXR M81 preamp to get the level up to the same as the p-bass (something like a good 8 to 10 db!).

So my question is two-fold;

1. While DiMarzio lists the J-set as having 150mv output, and the P as having 163mv, there shouldn't be THAT MUCH of an output level difference, should there?

2. Do pickups really start to "lose it" after so many years? If so, I might need to "update" good old Yammy again...

BTW, all of the controls (save for a PUP selector toggle on the Yamaha) are similar- the P-bass uses a pair of 250K CTS pots for volume and tone (with an orange drop tone cap). The Yamaha uses a pair of the same value CTS pots for volume and tone. Both basses have series/parallel switching as well (and yes, it's all wired "correctly")...

I had a set of these in my Squire Jag shorty. The P pickup was always louder than the J at the same height.
I had to raise the J and lower the P to get some balance.

I often wondered, in addition to the difference in output, if the location also made a difference?
In other words, is there a stronger string vibration at the P position than there is at the J?

On the other hand, comparing a P pickup in one bass to a J pickup in another is like comparing apples with a coffee can full of nails. There may be other sonic considerations besides the pickups and their locations when comparing two different slabs of wood.

 

[scuzzy]

doing a proper setup with the bridge jazz closer to strings than the P, i have found output to be very close on the two dimarzio equipped PJ basses i have owned. the P (as expected) had much more bass but the bridge was snarly. both are very high gain. as long as they are both wired the same and the heights are set-up properly, they should be fairly close, although I have never used just the jazz set.

 

[RobbieK]

I had a p j set of these old dimarzios in one of my basses and the p was way hotter than the j. Bridge pickups are of course usually a bit quieter than neck pickups because the strings aren't moving as much, but I had the j very close to the strings and the p backed way off.

I ended up switching the p to parallel and leaving the j in series mode and they actually worked quite well together.

But the Dimarzio p in parallel mode was not really the tone I wanted so I ended up winding my own p pickup with alnico mags. IIRC it is wound to 8k and works really well with the j.

Having said all this, even if the difference is 6 dB or even up to 10dB, I'm surprised you can't simply adjust the gain on your amp for either bass.

If you have both basses on the gig and you want to have a quick change option, then a simple passive a/b box could be made or modded to have an attenuator on one channel.

 

[basscapes]

I had a p j set of these old dimarzios in one of my basses and the p was way hotter than the j. Bridge pickups are of course usually a bit quieter than neck pickups because the strings aren't moving as much, but I had the j very close to the strings and the p backed way off.

I ended up switching the p to parallel and leaving the j in series mode and they actually worked quite well together.

But the Dimarzio p in parallel mode was not really the tone I wanted so I ended up winding my own p pickup with alnico mags. IIRC it is wound to 8k and works really well with the j.

Having said all this, even if the difference is 6 dB or even up to 10dB, I'm surprised you can't simply adjust the gain on your amp for either bass.

If you have both basses on the gig and you want to have a quick change option, then a simple passive a/b box could be made or modded to have an attenuator on one channel.

WEll, adjusting the gain is what I use the MXR on the J-set for- the Ampeg SCR-DI does not have an input gain control- thus the P bass clips the input while the J was always good at "normal" setting (internal jumper set to normal). With the jumper set to -15, the P sounds great, but the J-set (as mentioned in the original post) is about 8-10 db lower.

 

[RobbieK]

Ampeg SCR-DI does not have an input gain

Apologies. I just looked this up and I see it's a pedal, not an amp. So obviously all you can do is attenuate the bass before the input. You can do this with the bass vol control I guess, but I know this will dull the tone a little. Perhaps look into treble bleed mods.

I guess you could also mod the ampeg di pedal and take the dip switch out to a toggle for easier access.

Or you could also run a resistor inline with the hot wire from the pickup. I'd tack in a temporary 250k linear pot and set it where you like, then remove, measure, and install the nearest fixed resistor to tame the output. You may need a treble bleed mod as well for this. And perhaps a push-pull to short it out for when you use the bass with regular gear.

 

[basscapes]

Apologies. I just looked this up and I see it's a pedal, not an amp. So obviously all you can do is attenuate the bass before the input. You can do this with the bass vol control I guess, but I know this will dull the tone a little. Perhaps look into treble bleed mods.

I guess you could also mod the ampeg di pedal and take the dip switch out to a toggle for easier access.

Or you could also run a resistor inline with the hot wire from the pickup. I'd tack in a temporary 250k linear pot and set it where you like, then remove, measure, and install the nearest fixed resistor to tame the output. You may need a treble bleed mod as well for this. And perhaps a push-pull to short it out for when you use the bass with regular gear.

While I'm "adjusting" to the need for my MXR-M81 pre for my Yamaha (the lesser volume), and I'm happy with the tone (and the ability to change it a little with the MXR), I am perplexed with the overall volume between the Yamaha and the P would be so different, given the same PUP manufacturer!

 

[Slater]

I still say if you put those two Model J pups in series with each other, there shouldn’t be a drastic volume difference from the Model P.