Overheads, grand pianos...

[4Mal]

So I have a potential acoustic jazz date coming up with a 50k grand piano in play. Auditorium setting with decent acoustics. Sound reinforcement as opposed to PA... I have a pair of Rode NT-3 MDC's I use as over heads. Will those do justice to the grand ? Should I throw down and rent a set of Schoeps, etc ? Just keep the Rodes on the drums ...

Is a set of nt-5's a better bet in the piano ? The gig would cover a set of nt-5's ... Might be more in the offing with this particular piano... So I can afford to invest to an extent. Maybe one or two Crown PZM's ?


Anybody done a really good Grand in a jazz setting and have technique and mic recommendations ?

Thx!

 

[Geri O]

(Disclaimer - Sound guy and piano tuner-technician here...I"ll try to be gentle...)

Between pianos and mic choices and combinations, it's very difficult to predict what mic or mics will work best with a grand piano. The mics that work great with a Yamaha grand might not so much with a Steinway. And I swear, I've see this happen, a set of mics on a given piano might be fine with one player, but not another. I tell ya, it happens...Of course, so much depends on the chops of the sound guy.

Placement is another big variable. Typically, I try to put a mic close to the hammer area about 6-8 inches back from the dampers, then another mic over the bass strings about the same distance away. This is just my starting point. Ask 100 sound guys about piano micing placement and you'll get 400 responses...

The best and really only way to see how they work is to go in with the mics and try them on the piano (and "50K" tells me nothing of the piano. Has it been tuned, maintained and regulated, well, regularly, hammers voiced, strings seated, etc?...).

To offer a quick and dirty opinion (as if there is any other kind...), I think the mics you have on hand will be a good start. At least, they won't suck, I'm fairly certain. Hopefully, you have a decent PA that won't interact terribly with the piano mics (as is having to EQ for feedback as opposed to EQ-ing for tone) and a good piano and player.

Oh, are stage monitors for the pianist involved? Ruh Roe....

 

[N. Kentucky Bass]

Check out the Shure Beta92a for micing a grand piano. There are some videos on this. Easy to do and great sound. All you need is one mic. Best of all, the piano lid can be closed so the pianist can see everyone!

 

[Geri O]

I was curious about the Beta 92a since I have't heard of it and I can't find it on Shure's website. Might that model not be available in the US?

All the searches I try lead to non-US sites. Haven't found a pic of one yet.

My concern with the Beta line is that all of the Beta mics I see are supercardioid, which theoretically, may not have quite a wide enough pattern for piano, especially using just one. But hey, I'd love that check that mic out. After all, Beta 87s are some of the best cymbal overhead mics you'll ever hear!...

Forgot to add, I did use a couple of Beta 98s once when an acoustic piano unexpectedly showed up on a gig (which is a hell of a note in and of itself!). With some quick experimentation with placement, they sounded fine.

 

[N. Kentucky Bass]

Try this:

 

[D.A.R.K.]

As a live engineer, I've gotten to use a lot of mics in a lot of different situations, in many different pianos.
Typically i've been set up with akg 414's and a schertler piano pickup if monitors are going to be part of the equation.
That said, i've gotten to use DPA microphones a few times and the first mic system i'd try given an open option rental- wise would be this:
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It's funny though, on a few jazz gigs my butt has been saved by sticking a plain shure sm57 in a center sound hole in the sound board (and making sure it was in phase with the other mics).

 

[Geri O]

Try this:

Ahh, okay, that's what I thought. He's using a Beta 91, which makes sense now. I've done that as well, with Beta 91s, and Crown PZMs and the smaller PZM series, too. Not always the purest piano sound, but is great for loud situations and putting the lid down.

There's good info in that video, thanx for posting it, Dave. Take care...

 

[fokof]

I do a lot of piano reinforcement , I work in a Jazz club and on Jazz fests.
Piano and uprights.

It is true that 100 sound men will give you 400 ways to mike a piano.

I had good results with beta91 , taped on the sides , experiment for the best placement.
KM184 are my "To go" mike as far as condensers are concerned.

Last two years , I had good success with a pair of DPA 4091 (Cello) paired with a Helpinstill pickup.
Pickup for loud to Uber loud monitoring duties and to add 'Umpf' in FOH.

We bought a Yamaha C7 Silent last January , so right now , I'm only using the L-R in a full band context.
I"m a lucky man for that.


57 on foam in the biggest sound hole is a nice trick to have some gain (monitoring)

I had better results with an ORTF setup with a pair of condenser mikes instead of an XY setup.

 

[N. Kentucky Bass]

Oops, my bad, it's a Beta91a that I meant to mention. Not even sure if there is a 92.

BTW, I recently bought a 91a to mic a cajon on a live gig and it's a very effective mic. Very odd looking, too, not that that matters. The front of the mic is opposite the side where you plug in the XLR.

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[Big_Daws]

RODE NT-1 is a great mic or AKG C414's....i used a pair of AKG's C414's on a stienway at a large jazz festival and it sounded incredible...C414's all the way otherwise the NT-1's work well too....

 

[4Mal]

After endless research, I've settled on Audix Scx25a-ps. Got 'em for a rental. Not cheap but they seem as close to idiot proof as anything. Also taking a set of kM184's on loan from a bud plus... In my live mic case are an Audix OM-7 and a spare 421 Mk 2 - thinking about a sound hole mic straight to monitor and run the scx25's to the FOH. KM 184's about 8 inches back from the hammers around middle C and the other on. The bass string, 30" back - and rough in from there is my fall back... But closed lid is going to be the game I expect.

Pianist turns out to be David Vest and it turns out to be a blues show. My first grand piano mic'ing experience and I get a heavy weight... I think the second song I sang lead on was Flip, Flop, Fly from Big Joe Turner - this was the guy playing piano - yikes. I'm already practicing my best, " Yes, Mr Vest I can take the guitard and snare out of your monitor ... I was second cousin to slime mold for putting them in there... No I can't make the piano louder, the laws of physics are not within my ability to bend... Permission to commit seppuku respectfully requested..."

Assuming I get asked back. I'm going to add a BBE 4000 planar to my kit and probably either the Audix setup or the DPA magnetic setup ...

I'm leaving my sword home just in case. Just doing the trip in my old van should be close enough should permission be granted

 

[Geri O]

The Audix SCXs are great choices. An engineer with a popular Beatles tribute band that works with orchestras (Classical Mystery Tour) uses a pair of them on the pianos provided with the orchestra. Sounds fantastic. Of course, the engineer does a fantastic job, too.

 

[walterw]

out of my depth here as i've never had to try and amplify a piano (grand or otherwise), but i remember reading an interesting piece where the author maintained that trying to mic "low strings and high strings" is a mistake, because that's not how an audience hears a piano; he said the key was to realize that the player sits on the side of the instrument, and the front is the part facing the crowd.

he talked about doing left-right stereo mic'ing as left towards the keys and right towards the skinny end, rather than having the stereo image pan from bass to treble. now that i think about it, this might have been more about recording than live sound, though.

 

[4Mal]

I ended up with 1 scx25 about 18" back from the hammers on the bass side, about centered on the strings up about 3". Treble side scx25 back about 8" about 4" up, centered on middle C. Short stick. Sounded like a piano out front. No piano in the piano monitor and his vocal was punched pretty hard - that is one loud ass instrument. Beautiful sounding as well. 7' Gertrude Steinway.

Very tight setup and kinda out there in my experience. Drums and piano were flanking the guitar and bass. Bass player used my custom 1 x10 combo based on a GK MB-500. Ancient old Silvertone / DanElectro kinda bass. Very cool and a huge sound. Guitarist had an old Martin with a sound hole pickup and a Fishman loud box set in front of him and the bass guy. Hmm... Guitar and bass were di'ed straight from the amps. D6 on the kick. Rode nt-3 overhead. Not my typical setup but it sounded pretty nice in the setting.... And the piano shined.

Yippee!

I have to say that if you ever have the chance to do sound for David Vest - jump at it. He was very gracious. A treat to work with and man - he is one helluva player.

All in all, I'd say that Audix setup is a real winner. I really can't justify spending the $1600 for the kit, but I can sure tack $100 on to cover the cost of the rental ... Very, very nice setup. Part of it is the mics and part of it is the Audix D-Flex clips. About $20 delivered from Amazon. I already have a pair on the way. Look 'em up if you need to get a good mic somewhere um, interesting...

 

[Geri O]

out of my depth here as i've never had to try and amplify a piano (grand or otherwise), but i remember reading an interesting piece where the author maintained that trying to mic "low strings and high strings" is a mistake, because that's not how an audience hears a piano; he said the key was to realize that the player sits on the side of the instrument, and the front is the part facing the crowd. (EDIT - I wonder if the player agrees with that perspective. The piano tuner side of me is a little dubious, but not close-minded about it)

he talked about doing left-right stereo mic'ing as left towards the keys and right towards the skinny end, rather than having the stereo image pan from bass to treble. now that i think about it, this might have been more about recording than live sound, though.

That's certainly a good consideration, especially for recording piano. Also in live situations, maybe with a chamber-style (read low-volume) setting. Also, the skinny end in nearly all bass strings any way because of the length. Hey, the author earned a spot writing an article for the magazine, so there must be something to it. Don't know if I"ll ever get the chance to try it these days...

Most of the time in live situations, we are just trying to get a reasonable facsimile of the piano sound, all the while battling drum kits, guitar and bass amps, loud monitors, and at times in my traveling situations, a poorly tuned and placed PA (I've been known to toss a couple of sm57s in the piano as well sent to the monitors only in a desperate attempt to get some decent piano level in the monitors w/o feedback. It got us through the day)

 

[4Mal]

I read a piece from (I think it was Diana Krall's) piano tech. He uses the Barcus Berry 4000 on the sound board as the monitor feed and the same Audix setup I rented. The mics are very, very nice but I wonder if the mounts are really the star ... I'm going to try a couple of SE pencils with omni caps mounted and the d-flex clips just to see when I next get the chance.