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overpower or underpower, a hypothetical..

I put a subharmonic synth through an 18 cab, and eq'd, with a 4x12 on the other side of an ampeg 1500 watter, and the roughly 680 watts the 18 got was well over the 450 it was rated for. Also, the 4x12 was rated at 400 total. It was seeing the same 680.
You don't actually have any idea how much wattage went into the cabs. You know what the ratings are, but the ratings are not actually a description of the amount of wattage the amp is putting out at any one time. Maybe you "figured" it was loud enough to be reaching max wattage, but that isn't the same as knowing for a fact.
That said, I generally shoot for 95-115 percent of cab power handling....Guitar, bass, proaudio, home/car audio...
...Using your imagination and some printed ratings. Not an actual knowledge of the wattage actually reached, or how often those peaks were reached (or, for that matter, exceeded).
Also, A/C power supply to the amps is never as high as it is in the nice little laboratory where output is tested....Theres a proportional reduction of output...
I don't see what that has to do with any of this. I also doubt it's true, since the powering inside an amp is usually regulated DC.
 
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Would you guys say that you can hear the 'danger signs' before there is an issue with blowing a speaker? If you are, for example, running a 600 watt head into a 1000 watt cab and the tone is powerful, undistorted and pleasant, can you be mostly assured that there is no danger to damaging the speakers?
Most assuredly. The same would apply to a 1000 watt head into a 600 watt cab.
 
Most assuredly. The same would apply to a 1000 watt head into a 600 watt cab.
a couple years ago, some dude was talking about how he turned a cab way up, started playing, didn't hear any danger signs, and all of a sudden his speakers went. i, of course, lectured him over the silliness of turning up that loud, but it did bring up a point...he didn't hear any warning signs and he thought it was fine. so what happened? did he just happen to hit a big peak that took everything out at once because he was so loud?
 
@ tallboybass - Too little power - CAN cause issues. The square top of its wave, has LONGER duration than the little tip of a sine that is not clipped. If it is at thermal handling for lengthy duration, (it would have to be just SLIGHTLY underpowered) then it can cause excessive heat in the coil of a driver.

Uh, no. That is not correct. All this "square top of the wave" stuff is baloney. The loudspeaker dose not care about the waveform of the signal.

Too little power cannot overheat a loudspeaker. Too much can.
 
a couple years ago, some dude was talking about how he turned a cab way up, started playing, didn't hear any danger signs, and all of a sudden his speakers went. i, of course, lectured him over the silliness of turning up that loud, but it did bring up a point...he didn't hear any warning signs and he thought it was fine. so what happened? did he just happen to hit a big peak that took everything out at once because he was so loud?
I'd put that one in the BS pile. Few drivers have displacement limits more than half of thermal limits, and most of those are less than two years old, as they mainly consist of the 3015LF and 3012LF.
 
I can't site read, lol, But the scope doesn't lie. I work for my grandfather in a tv repair shop, the first thing I do with my equip is see what it will do. Yes, I know a speaker is a reactive load, actual power depends on the frequency and the enclosure the woofer is in.

That said, I can calculate true wattage on a resistive load. Also, using an impedance plot of the enclosure my 12's and 18's were in, I can say that the wattage was exceeded heftily. Seeing inefficiency in my cabinet was the reason i rebuilt it in the first place. I have had the drivers, magnalab 12's, since 1991.

A 300 watt rms amplifier, on a 320 watt woofer/sub, can be forced into clipping, and as I said before, no, not often, but it can come to pass that the duty cycle of max output is longer than the duty cycle of an unchanged wave.

The majority of failures come from strongly overpowering drivers, as well as improper enclosure design.

An amplifier can only put out what it can, however, a strong clipped signal can cause problems. Wattage is HEAT. The top of a clipped Sine wave is flat. The duration of the signal is now lengthened beyond the duration of the tiny peak of an unclipped signal. Heat dissipation of a voice coil is weakened by this duration, which can produce as much heat buildup as a pure signal of SLIGHTLY higher power.

You can touch a red hot stove eye 6-8 times quickly and not get burned. IF you hold your finger on it(even with it on med or low) for the duration of the time the 6-8 touches take, YOU GET BURNED. Just like a voice coil.

This would be at frequencies away from the resonant frequency of the driver in a certain enclosure. FWIW, the notes on your bass that sound the loudest do not necessarily take as much power as a note closer to resonance. That said, we have a habit of cranking until the weaker notes sound full...and playing lighter on the easier notes....Or adding eq to flatten response...In effect, this causes the amplifier to peak more, either scenario.

If peak heat is no different than constant heat, why dont you just peck a pot a time or two to heat it up? You remove the gun, the heat goes bye-bye. It takes DURATION of heat to heat the connection....to cause solder to flow...

I said it was few and far between for a reason! I did not say underpowering WILL cause damage, I said it CAN.

Also, in a preamp-poweramp setup, You can easily overpower a 300 watt driver with a 300 watt amp. Feed the amp too large a signal, increase the input sensitivity, and viola! You will have a clipped input signal, a clipped output signal, etc. This would require an amplifier with a hefty power supply, and ample capacitance to keep power on reserve.

Complicating matters further is the fact that any given manufacturer can vary the numbers on the ratings, and I have seen first hand the thiele-small numbers of a driver disagree with the claims of specifications by the amplifier company, who doesn't make the speaker in the first place.

More times than not, the driver is protected by the enclosure to not reveal the weakness.

Someone who has no knowledge need not set things up-right/wrong?

That said, it takes a little knowledge when overpowering a little. You gotta know everything doesn't go to 10. Likewise, when you underpower, everything doesn't go to 10 either.

Who prefers the tone of a cranked to the max bass amp in the first place?



You don't actually have any idea how much wattage went into the cabs. You know what the ratings are, but the ratings are not actually a description of the amount of wattage the amp is putting out at any one time. Maybe you "figured" it was loud enough to be reaching max wattage, but that isn't the same as knowing for a fact.

...Using your imagination and some printed ratings. Not an actual knowledge of the wattage actually reached, or how often those peaks were reached (or, for that matter, exceeded).

I don't see what that has to do with any of this. I also doubt it's true, since the powering inside an amp is usually regulated DC.
 
Given the fact the ??? was generically, 'can AN amplifier...' yes, I can. A powerful, unregulated amplifier can output more than its power rating. It cant exceed the limits of its components, but if the question were rephrased, to suggest only a regulated amplifier in the question, then, no, I could not have posted that.

An overbuilt amplifier(rare) can physically exceed rated power, though it is not designed to by purpose....

Urgh, really, you can just read past all the posts from actual engineers, and repeat that guff?
 
So, Bob is an officer of the AES and an engineer for a leading amplifier brand, and your claim to technical knowledge is being the grandson of a TV repairman...

Everything you've described with duration of heat on clipped peaks is "magical thinking", like doing a rain dance. It may rain sometime after you do the dance, but there is no actual correlation.

And this thing about "oh, if you are only talking about regulated amps..." is weak--you are deliberately ignoring the wide agreement that overpowering a speaker can cause problems, which is not directly related to the wave shape, or clipping.
 
Sorry, if you expanded and mag'ed that "flat top" you would find it not flat and constant at all. That is where the "theory" dies. You did not explore that clipped signal, at best it would only be modified by 60 or 120Hz (half or full wave rectified) then by harmonics of the original signal.
 
@ tallboybass - Too little power - CAN cause issues. The square top of its wave, has LONGER duration than the little tip of a sine that is not clipped. If it is at thermal handling for lengthy duration, (it would have to be just SLIGHTLY underpowered) then it can cause excessive heat in the coil of a driver.

This would only be obtainable in a preamp/power amp combo where the pre could clip the power amp, or the sensitivity of the power amp could be manually adjusted so that the input waveform is modified.

And yes, it is rare.
Really? Are we going to go through this for another 4 years??
 
The top of a clipped Sine wave is flat.

So what? As has been mentioned before, the loudspeaker doesn't care about the shape of the waveform.

If you could suddenly increase the maximum output voltage of the amp that is clipping so that the signal is clean, you'll put even more power into the loudspeaker. If it was overheating before, it'll now overheat even faster.

Your stove analogy is quite flawed.