What’s your thoughts on P and Reverse P pickups? Does one sound different than the other? For better or worse?
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P vs Reverse P, what’s better?
- Thread starter BassAndReeds
- Start date
The idea was that the traditional Fender placement (with the pickup half for the E and A string closer to the neck) gave a characteristic tone where those two strings sounded 'bassier', while the other half being closer to the bridge made the D and G brighter. . . . . but sort of mismatched in tone and output between the two halves.
On any bass (although it's easier to hear on a single pickup axe), start picking or plucking a note at the end of the fingerboard and move your still picking hand along the string length to the bridge: The tone is thicker or bassier towards the fingerboard end, and gets thinner sounding as you move towards the bridge. Use a pick right at the bridge saddles and it sounds like a Telecaster.
So the idea was to reverse the placement, thereby warming up the D and G and by moving the E and A closer to the bridge, it would gain a little articulation. IF . . . . . you can hear this, it's a very small difference. It's simple for a builder to do, you just turn the router template over on the same spot and there you are.
To me it's one of those things that I think is more an advertising claim than a big improvement. P-pickups can easily favor the E and A if both halves are not carefully adjusted for an even output, which to me is the real problem a lot of guys can hear, but hey, it sells a lot of replacement pickups . . . . . . which if THEY'RE not adjusted, now you think 'it must be the bass, the bridge, etc., it CAN'T be my new XYZ Wonder Pickups ' and you can wind up chasing the White Rabbit down the hole for lack of a Phillips screwdriver and a 6" rule to fix . . . . . the same problem carried over from the original pickups ! Generally, the two pickup halves will look like a roof: where they meet in the middle will be higher than the outside ends, and probably the D/G side will be a hair higher to compensate for their smaller diameters. Look at brand new Precisions in a store, and you'll notice that. On the other hand, I can't tell you how many old used P's I've seen with both halves flat and parallel to the pickguard. Oh well . . . . .
This is why the basics of setup with string heights, neck relief, pickup heights, fingerboard radius matching, proper string up, should be a part of every real player's knowledge base. It makes your life much easier, and as spoken about above, can save you money.
But as for your original question, I've had more than a few Yamahas and a PJ Alembic with reversed P's, and to me it's more the pickup and its' adjustment than any 'night and day' difference with the pickup reversed, in my experience.
Others may have a different opinion.
On any bass (although it's easier to hear on a single pickup axe), start picking or plucking a note at the end of the fingerboard and move your still picking hand along the string length to the bridge: The tone is thicker or bassier towards the fingerboard end, and gets thinner sounding as you move towards the bridge. Use a pick right at the bridge saddles and it sounds like a Telecaster.
So the idea was to reverse the placement, thereby warming up the D and G and by moving the E and A closer to the bridge, it would gain a little articulation. IF . . . . . you can hear this, it's a very small difference. It's simple for a builder to do, you just turn the router template over on the same spot and there you are.
To me it's one of those things that I think is more an advertising claim than a big improvement. P-pickups can easily favor the E and A if both halves are not carefully adjusted for an even output, which to me is the real problem a lot of guys can hear, but hey, it sells a lot of replacement pickups . . . . . . which if THEY'RE not adjusted, now you think 'it must be the bass, the bridge, etc., it CAN'T be my new XYZ Wonder Pickups ' and you can wind up chasing the White Rabbit down the hole for lack of a Phillips screwdriver and a 6" rule to fix . . . . . the same problem carried over from the original pickups ! Generally, the two pickup halves will look like a roof: where they meet in the middle will be higher than the outside ends, and probably the D/G side will be a hair higher to compensate for their smaller diameters. Look at brand new Precisions in a store, and you'll notice that. On the other hand, I can't tell you how many old used P's I've seen with both halves flat and parallel to the pickguard. Oh well . . . . .
This is why the basics of setup with string heights, neck relief, pickup heights, fingerboard radius matching, proper string up, should be a part of every real player's knowledge base. It makes your life much easier, and as spoken about above, can save you money.
But as for your original question, I've had more than a few Yamahas and a PJ Alembic with reversed P's, and to me it's more the pickup and its' adjustment than any 'night and day' difference with the pickup reversed, in my experience.
Others may have a different opinion.
The difference is so incredibly subtle that I wouldn't sweat it for a second. Once you get your bass in a mix (live or recorded) it disappears altogether. So I would sweat it even less.
- Apr 18, 2008
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- Disclosures
- I'm highly opinionated and extremely self-assured
Unless the pickup is near the bridge. There the difference is quite noticeable, with the Reverse P being much more balanced.
Noted. I admit I assumed we were talking about the traditional pickup placement.
Reverse P, as intended, does even out the sound across the strings, but it comes at a price of a limited range (depending on pickup placement, you can either lack lows or highs). It works well with another pickup, to compensate for the loss of range + the phase cancellation when blending two pickups seems to work better with a reverse P.
The classic P, on the other hand, is just great by itself. It has a full range (as Leo intended), but you gotta dial the tones with the right strings, setup, and technique adjustment. Imo, it does not pair that well with other pickups (except when it does).
The classic P, on the other hand, is just great by itself. It has a full range (as Leo intended), but you gotta dial the tones with the right strings, setup, and technique adjustment. Imo, it does not pair that well with other pickups (except when it does).
On a Spector with an EMG, the balance is better IMO.
The G string is a little bit thicker.
This may be a function of an active EMG or the HAZ preamp.
OTOH, I normally play passive P's and just move my right hand position slightly toward the neck when heading to the upper registers.
The G string is a little bit thicker.
This may be a function of an active EMG or the HAZ preamp.
OTOH, I normally play passive P's and just move my right hand position slightly toward the neck when heading to the upper registers.
I won't pretend to know what Leo was thinking, but it should be noted that he designed the instrument around flat wound strings and what most of us today would consider a guitar amp, because that's all that was available. Very different technology that impacted the pickup design and placement. He also assumed most people would play with their thumb, thus the positioning of the tug bar, and use mutes on the strings.
As for P and reverse P...do what sounds better to you. The normal config has always sounded fine to me.
If you play with your 1st or 2nd finger on the root and your 4th finger on the octave, then standard P will be perfect for you. It will give you even sound between the root and the octave.
If on the other hand you prefer to play with your 4th finger on the root and your 1st finger on the octave, then reverse P might give you a more even sound between the root and octave.
If on the other hand you prefer to play with your 4th finger on the root and your 1st finger on the octave, then reverse P might give you a more even sound between the root and octave.
Interesting. I play root 1st “pointer” finger. Octave 2nd “Middle” finger.
I don’t pluck with fingers 3 or 4. I wonder if I’m doing it wrong.
I meant left-hand (fretting) fingers, not right-hand (plucking) fingers. Sorry for the confusion.
Not at all. Is there a reason you say that?
First of all, can we agree that a pickup will produce different tones depending how it divides the string? For example a pickup near the neck, where the 24th fret would be, divides the string 75/25, and will have a much different tone than a pickup near the bridge that divides the string 90/10?
Second, can you see how the effective vibrating length of the string changes when you fret a note? For example a pickup at the 24th fret divides the string 75/25, but if you fret the 12th fret, now the pickup divides the string 50/50 and will have a different tone? You can really hear this change strongly on a bass with a single pickup in neck position, for example on my Epiphone EB-0, there is a large inconsistency in sound as I move higher up the neck. On the other hand, when I am playing a Jazz bass with the bridge pickup soloed, there is less variation in tone as I play up and down the neck. (Perhaps this is why Jaco loved the bridge pickup sound; more consistent tone in various positions?)
Okay now on to my main point:
Imagine you are playing root-octave with your 1st finger on C at the 3rd fret of the A string, and 4th finger on C at the 5th fret of the G string. For all intents and purposes (measuring the vibrating length of the string) your A string becomes longer than your G string. Therefore, it makes sense to have the G string pickup closer to the bridge than the A string pickup to compensate.
Now imagine you are playing root-octave with your 4th finger on C at the 8th fret of the E string, and 1st finger on C at the 5th fret of the G string. In this scenario, your E string becomes shorter than your G string. So it makes sense to have the E string pickup closer to the bridge than the G string pickup (reverse P) to compensate.
If you mainly play roots in the lower positions (near the nut) and only go up the G string for the occasional high note, then Leo Fender's original P design makes a lot of sense. On the other hand, if you regularly play higher up the neck, then the reverse P might suit you better, to give more punch and definition to your roots on the E string.
I personally play and love the traditional P style, but must concede that notes above 10th fret on the E string can be a bit boomy compared to some of my other basses.
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Wow man, that's way too much thinking for me
I do get the idea of wanting consistency, but I always seem to manage on whatever bass I play regardless of how the pickup is set or what kind of bass it is. Got to admit I love how notes get boomy on the E past the 10th fret and I like to use that for effect sometimes, but I can see why others may not dig it so much.
Whats better is up to your personal preferences and tastes. I can tell you that for me, I prefer the reverse P as I get more mids from the low strings and more lows from the high strings.
Wow man, that's way too much thinking for me
I agree with this; I'd prefer have as much tonal variety as possible on my bass than to go out of my way to make all the string tones uniform. I do sometimes find myself playing closer to the bridge on my E string for more controlled notes; a simple change in hand placement can do as much as switching the pick-up.
I do this - a lot, and agree the standard P works very well for me. I also like that it has more low end on the low strings - see my sig for why this is a plus.
