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Double Bass Palentino

#41
I think it's kinda the opposite, the market is driving the production. I mean, these factories are only churning out bad instruments instead of shipping pallets because they can make more money selling a bass. And every BG ist that feels like that want to play the big boy but doesn't have a clue is going to do the same thing that they do when they are looking for a new BG, go online and see what comes up and look fro the cheapest version of that. And they either drop it or stick with it and the bass falls apart or they get hip and another Crapatino comes on the market.

But when they see one on MTV (even if that's NOT the sound on the soundtrack) or think how happening a "jump" band is or just think it looks cool - none of that stuff is about the SOUND. And since you can't just plug it in and get a sound, well I'd be VERY interested in looking at the demographics of
1.who's buying them
2. how long they stick with upright
3. who's still playing them 5 or 10 years down the line
 
#42
Gufenov said:
Frankly, there isn't much difference. Word it how you want; it means the bass player is being blown off for the brand of instrument he/she owns. I fail to understand how that attitude nutures a beginning bassist. And I don't agree that an owner of an eBay bass is unworthy of a luthier's service.
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Wow! I see a huge difference in attitude and it's hardly subtle! I don't think you are being very fair in your interpretation of what has been written here. Perhaps you have not been in business. Sometimes it is of great benefit to post one's policies so that individual customers know what they are and do not feel that the proprietor is acting capriciously when an unfavorable decision is rendered. The type of policy under discussion does not suggest that "an owner of an eBay bass is unworthy of a luthier's service." Rather, it states that the bass is unworthy of the luthier's time in that working on it could lead to a damaged relationship between the luthier and the owner of the bass. It is a protection for both parties.
 
#43
And, strictly speaking, it's not talking about a brand, like when BG players talk about FENDER or WAL or WISHNEVSKY. Nobody really CARES (well, maybe Ken Smith) about what BRAND of upright you play (and any number of us play pretty no-name basses. Like me.) But if a bass (or category of basses) is so poorly constructed that even trying to get the top off requires using a SkilSaw (because of them being assembled with adhesives designed to never come apart rather than hide glue etc.) then what is your problem with somebody saying that they aren't worth the wood they are made out of? What exactly do you think I personally am getting out of telling somebody that this is NOT A GOOD CHOICE?
 
#44
drurb said:
Perhaps you have not been in business.
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Actually, I've owned two, both very successful. I'm now a successful manager in someone else's business.
drurb said:
Sometimes it is of great benefit to post one's policies so that individual customers know what they are and do not feel that the proprietor is acting capriciously when an unfavorable decision is rendered.
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Really? I'm sure glad you cleared that up for me. [Mr Rogers Voice] "Can you say condescending? I knew ya could..."[/Mr Rogers Voice]:rolleyes:
drurb said:
The type of policy under discussion does not suggest that "an owner of an eBay bass is unworthy of a luthier's service." Rather, it states that the bass is unworthy of the luthier's time in that working on it could lead to a damaged relationship between the luthier and the owner of the bass. It is a protection for both parties.
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The POLICY may address the bass. The RESULT addresses the person, who may be a new player with a broken bass. How does it "protect" that person to refuse to help instead of having an honest discussion about the pros and cons of repairing the bass? Hanging up a sign that says "take your business elsewhere" doesn't damage the "relationship"? Puh-leeze.
 
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#45
Goofingoff,

Some luthiers, and others in business, might feel that it is unethical to take a person's money when they know that it is taking good money after bad. If someone spent $600 on a bass, and the repairs necessary cost 3x that much, how in good conscience can they take the money? It would be better to send the customer out with the repair $$ to buy a better DB.

Even if all the instrument needs at the time is a set-up, here's what a luthier is looking at: As much as 12-24 hrs. to carve a bridge to fit properly and set a sound post. Even after that, the fingerboards on these things are horrible, usually so much scoop that there is nothing to be done but replace the board. If you try to dress the board, whatever that stuff is;- not ebony, goofs up all your tools. If you put good ebony on there, that will cost more than the bass if you include the charge to dress it. And the glue the first one is on there with isn't the hide glue that's reversible. The luthiers know;- these basses are not made well enough to even be maintained or improved in any valuable way. It is best not to get involved with them in any way.
 
#46
Gufenov said:
Can you say condescending? I knew ya could..."[/Mr Rogers Voice]:rolleyes:
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Yes, I can say it but I was not being condescending. Can you say disingenuous?

Gufenov said:
The POLICY may address the bass. The RESULT addresses the person, who may be a new player with a broken bass. How does it "protect" that person to refuse to help instead of having an honest discussion about the pros and cons of repairing the bass? Hanging up a sign that says "take your business elsewhere" doesn't damage the "relationship"? Puh-leeze.
Click to expand...

They are not mutually exclusive. No one said the sign is there instead of the discussion. A customer does not walk in, see the sign, and leave sulking. C'mon! Get real!
 
#47
Gufenov, I feel it's necessary to state that I do not in any way consider Bruce Sexauer to have an elitist attitude towards any given instrument or customer. I've met him, albeit briefly, and I've known many customers who were very happy with his work over the years I lived in California. He originally posted his position and a clear explanation of that position in an earlier post. I then alluded to it in post #21, which you then quoted and responded to, all of which is fine. But I'm here to tell you that if you're somehow trying to accuse Bruce of being a snob, you are way off base.
 
#48
Silversorcerer said:
Goofingoff,

Some luthiers, and others in business, might feel that it is unethical to take a person's money when they know that it is taking good money after bad. If someone spent $600 on a bass, and the repairs necessary cost 3x that much, how in good conscience can they take the money? It would be better to send the customer out with the repair $$ to buy a better DB.

Even if all the instrument needs at the time is a set-up, here's what a luthier is looking at: As much as 12-24 hrs. to carve a bridge to fit properly and set a sound post. Even after that, the fingerboards on these things are horrible, usually so much scoop that there is nothing to be done but replace the board. If you try to dress the board, whatever that stuff is;- not ebony, goofs up all your tools. If you put good ebony on there, that will cost more than the bass if you include the charge to dress it. And the glue the first one is on there with isn't the hide glue that's reversible. The luthiers know;- these basses are not made well enough to even be maintained or improved in any valuable way. It is best not to get involved with them in any way.
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We agree 100%. My point is that a respectable business person takes the time to explain this to the owner, and allows the owner to participate in the the decision making.
 
#49
I am happy to see this thread take off, though it has become a little unnecessarily rude here and there, perhaps. I already took some responsability for a bit of that, but this is a really big issue for me, so I will go on a bit.

I have worked on several of these basses in the past, and even sold a couple before I came to see them as I now do. There are four main problems for me.
1, the quality of the materials is so bad that it takes WAY more effort to come close to accomplishing my set-up goals. A lot less planing and a lot more sanding.
2, Sanding is terribly imprecise, and the more that is done (at least using my techniques) the less accuracy: a bumpier playing surface.
3, Generally, within 6 months the bass no longer reflects my concept. I have learned NOT to guarantee my work in this kind of case, and so the customer has to throw a couple of hundred more bucks at it, I have to once again hate twice as much time as it should take, and everybody loses.

Most of these basses have a maple fingerboard, and it is incapable of holding the machined shape when tnsion is added. So getting the correct relief is a crap shoot. And the more you take off, the less stable, whoa.

4, Most of the buyers for these things are unsophisticated, they have no idea how a bass should play. A stiff bass is not like a stiff violin. A violin with 200% action height can easily be overpowered by a normally strong player. Not so the bass. But the novice doesn't know this, they tend to think there is something wrong with their own ability and are very liable to give it up as a lack of talent. Especially kids. I consider this tragic, and I actively campaign against bad (evil!) basses because of this.

Thank you to those who have supported my position on this. It would be nice if there was a good under $1000 bass, but the last time I saw that was when the school systems let their Kay basses go. Unless you're very lucky!
 
#50
Congradulations Nic, You have started a huge disscussion. In spite of some slightly insensitive remarks toward Your purchace, I'd say all of these comments show that many folks here care about You and Your bass and any future You would like to have as an upright bass player. True , I advised You not to buy the Palatino, but I want to be supportive now that you have. I'll repeat my advise. Stick with the nylon strings to make the bass easier to play and put as little pressure on the neck as possible to make this bass last as long as it can for You. Try to find somebody to lower the action just a little for just a few bucks. Just get it so You can push down the strings easier. You may get some buzzes from the figerboard, but just put up with that, don't spend more money to fix that. Enjoy what You have for now, don't let the negative reviews of palatinos bum You out. Re-read the newbie links & learn more about a wise purchase for Your next bass.KEEP THAT PICKUP WHEN/ IF YOU GET ANOTHER BASS.DON"T SELL IT AS PART OF A DEAL. I started with a cheap bass too. I've gone on to buy better basses that I paid from $1,000 to $10,000 for. All of these were/are good basses
And come on guys, take it easy on a guy in highschool with no experience at bass shopping. This is a great thread. I hope we havn't scared nick away. Hey nick, are You out there buddy? let us know how thing are going from time to time.
 
#52
Last summer I worked on one of these basses.....first mistake I made all year.
I had to correct the end pin. Any way I looked in side to discover the neck block still had the tree bark on it. Not just some bark but all of it. Perhaps it wasnt finished growing.
If some one has a problem with shops that refuse to work on these basses, then get you r hands dirty for a few years and then chime back in.
 
#54
While I agree w/ the negative reviews of palatinos, please remember that the thread was started by a guy in highschool buying his 1st upright with no experience. We may have scared him off. A supportive thing to do would be to send him a PM and give him some realistic advise that isn't insulting. I injoy the sparing matches here, but I hope we are here to help each other out. I think this should go double for a young newbie.
 
#58
Marcus Johnson said:
But I'm here to tell you that if you're somehow trying to accuse Bruce of being a snob, you are way off base.
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I am not. I'm sure he's a fine, well respected luthier and I respect his well-stated opinion. My point - my ONLY point - is that a newbie bass player is not nurtured or encouraged when his cheap bass has a problem and the person he turns to for help sends him away with a refusal to work on his instrument.

That opinion seems to have generated a lot of heartburn.
 
#60
Gufenov said:
I am not. I'm sure he's a fine, well respected luthier and I respect his well-stated opinion. My point - my ONLY point - is that a newbie bass player is not nurtured or encouraged when his cheap bass has a problem and the person he turns to for help sends him away with a refusal to work on his instrument.

That opinion seems to have generated a lot of heartburn.
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You're off bas Guernor.

The guy went to a great source to ask advice. Then he ignored the advice.

Palatinos are turds. Money down the drain unless you can sell it before it Crapatinos out.

Why should we coddle the guy who asked advice anad then ignored it.

Do you wanna work on his bass, polish a turd, so to speak. Or do you have better things to do?
 

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