Paypal and fee free stuff. Not entirely understanding.

[uOpt]

There are really two issues here:

1) is it OK to use the fee-free paypal. No, because that is crewing paypal out of their money. They provide service to you, they earned their pay. If you don't like it, use something else. This option has been provided by paypal for a very narrow set of uses, all of them are to the benefit of some users. Don't ruin it. Constantly skipping fees will make trading more expensive or less safe for those who do pay. I fully agree that a forum should not allow this in it's forsale section.

2) is it OK to say that you want the buyer to pay the fees (or have a higher asking price for paypal payers)? This isn't allowed by the paypal rules, but it doesn't do any direct harm, doesn't threaten the future of paypal and doesn't pose a risk to screw people who do play by the rules. In this case I'd say the forum shouldn't mess with it in the rules one way or another. If the buyer has a problem with asking for fees back then don't buy.

 

[Iridescentone]

So the real question is why can't seller's charge the fees separately to the buyer...correct?

Well, it's the same reason commercial retailers are not allowed to charge their customers credit card surcharges.

Credit card companies (and PayPal) are in business to make money. They don't want to discourage the use of their services by charging the person who is ultimately putting up the funds for the transaction, the buyer.

The retailer or seller benefits greatly from this because you have buyers who are eager to purchase and now have an easy method to pay with. The seller sells his product faster, gets his money faster and everyone is happy. It's simply worth the (approximately) 3%...especially since the seller can set his price accordingly in order to cover this "overhead".

So the policy is really there to protect PayPal's interest in making money.

Now, in order for PayPal to make widespread use of their system more palatable to everyone they also provide a service that allows it's users to transfer funds to friends and relatives without paying any fees...that's called a bonus, they don't have to offer that, but it's value added for using their service.

They have to keep folks from abusing this bonus feature by excluding those transactions from the buyer protections offered for the fee-based transactions.

So this rule is really PayPal's rule...TalkBass just enforces it as well because they are interested in maintaining a high level of credibility for the classified section plus they also don't want to be caught in the middle of a dispute where a buyer gave up the protections offered.

Ultimately it's just PayPal wanting buyers to feel warm and fuzzy about using PayPal so they keep on using it and everybody stays in business.

^^ Exactly.

Another often overlooked aspect to evading Paypal fees, is that both parties involved in such fraudulent transactions risk having their Paypal priveledges revoked. Granted, the risk is slight. But still, is beating Paypal out of a lousy $20 worth that risk? Not to me.

Additionally, if a seller wants me to help him scam Paypal....is he being straight with me about the item for sale? How can I trust this person enough to waive my Paypal buyer protection? I can't so I just walk away from it. I've walked several times from TB sellers for this reason. They may as well be asking me to mail an envelope full of cash.

And yet, the "fee-free" sales nonsense goes on day after day around here. Sellers so hellbent on beating Paypal, that they don't mind chasing away potenial buyers. Insane.

 

[Jazzdogg]

I have difficulty believing there are people who are bent out of shape by a meager $30 fee on a $1,000 sale; that's comparable to the credit card commission typically paid by to American Express by retailers.

If $30 is a big deal, just charge $1,030 in the first place, and don't mention the fees; you'll net $1,000, and no one will have violated any TB rules.

 

[mactac]

^^ Exactly.

Another often overlooked aspect to evading Paypal fees, is that both parties involved in such fraudulent transactions risk having their Paypal priveledges revoked. Granted, the risk is slight. But still, is beating Paypal out of a lousy $20 worth that risk? Not to me.

Additionally, if a seller wants me to help him scam Paypal....is he being straight with me about the item for sale? How can I trust this person enough to waive my Paypal buyer protection? I can't so I just walk away from it. I've walked several times from TB sellers for this reason. They may as well be asking me to mail an envelope full of cash.

And yet, the "fee-free" sales nonsense goes on day after day around here. Sellers so hellbent on beating Paypal, that they don't mind chasing away potenial buyers. Insane.

But the point here is this is Talkbass, not paypal. Why is TB trying to enforce Paypal's rules? the Credit card charge is enforced by the merchant account provider. Paypal is free to enforce their rules, but what does that have to do with Talkbass? Talkbass isn't the seller, they have no interest in how the transaction takes place.

 

[Double E]

But the point here is this is Talkbass, not paypal. Why is TB trying to enforce Paypal's rules? the Credit card charge is enforced by the merchant account provider. Paypal is free to enforce their rules, but what does that have to do with Talkbass? Talkbass isn't the seller, they have no interest in how the transaction takes place.

Talkbass has an interest in creating the safest, most comfortable buying/selling environment for their members. If you don't get that or don't want to play by the rules, you have plenty of other outlets to take your gear to market.

The admins of the site can make the rules however they please. It is a privilege, not an inalienable right to be a member and post here.

 

[mactac]

Talkbass has an interest in creating the safest, most comfortable buying/selling environment for their members. If you don't get that or don't want to play by the rules, you have plenty of other outlets to take your gear to market.

The admins of the site can make the rules however they please. It is a privilege, not an unalienable right to be a member and post here.

I am not clear where you understand that I don't get that. I do get that, and I do not understand why you are being antagonistic. I did not claim an unalienable right, nor did I chastise anyone. Perhaps because I don't immediately understand the position that I am unappreciative or something? TB for me has been a discussion, and once in a rare while I try to sell or buy something on it. I have been a member as long as you have.

To reply to me in a derisive tone for even questioning why a policy exits seems almost fascist. Is getting clarity or questioning a not allowed? It's seems like the opposite of the "safe place" that you describe.

I, like the OP, am merely wondering why. I'm not making demands as you intimate, I am merely trying to understand, as to me it doesn't quite make sense to me.

I - of course- agree that safe trading is extremely important.

In any case, let me restate my point in different terms:

I don't quite understand how forcing the seller to pay for Paypal fees creates a better, safer transaction. Of course there is no protection with a "gift", but it's not really a gift anyways. Anyone who is willing to misrepresent a transaction (seller OR buyer) could get themselves into trouble. This is the real problem - people should not misrepresent. If you deal in a shady area, it's easy to get burned.

The policy, while having good intentions, seems to be somewhat misplaced - it makes the sellers pay for buyer's mistakes or risks that they want to take. I also see how it can backfire in some situations when all the prices are inflated.

The other thing that I should point out is that as a seller, there could be many more fees than the simple 3%.

 

[MultiScaleMale]

Then don't sell on TB.

 

[mactac]

Then don't sell on TB.

Once again, I'm not complaining or saying that it needs to be changed, I'm just making an observation and posing a question to try to get an understanding.

I'm really not understanding the vitriol for asking a question. It seems incredibly defensive.

Anyways, I've clearly hit a nerve for some people, so I guess I'll just leave it, and continue on my merry way!

 

[Double E]

I don't find my post any more antagonistic than your posts. Vitriol? Really? You're not new to the internet, how can you call what you've read vitriol?

Sellers fees are the responsibility of the seller because the seller is the party that benefits most from the transaction. The money is transferred immediately in most paypal transactions, then it is the buyer who must wait and trust that the seller has represented his wares fairly.

Paypal is an excellent service but it could not exist without fees and rules. It would not be in Talkbass' best interest to create a marketplace that allowed members to abuse this service.

 

[Iridescentone]

But the point here is this is Talkbass, not paypal. Why is TB trying to enforce Paypal's rules? the Credit card charge is enforced by the merchant account provider. Paypal is free to enforce their rules, but what does that have to do with Talkbass? Talkbass isn't the seller, they have no interest in how the transaction takes place.

There are negative consequences to Talkbass if they are viewed by Paypal as facilitating or condoning fraudulent transactions.

You can read through the Paypal regs for specifics, I can't recall them offhand.

 

[mactac]

There are negative consequences to Talkbass if they are viewed by Paypal as facilitating or condoning fraudulent transactions.

You can read through the Paypal regs for specifics, I can't recall them offhand.

That makes perfect sense. Thank you.

 

[Double E]

Asking members to play by the rules is the right thing to do. Avoiding legal action from the third party should not be the most compelling reason to accept this.

imho... ymmv... and blah, blah, blah.