(Pedal options) Clean blend vs crossover and mix, + parallel looping.

[theculprit]

Lately I've been getting the bug to try some clean blending (and parallel looping) mainly with dirt pedals as a start, and I've immersed myself in reading about different pedal optiins to acheive these goals. There seems to be 2 schools of thought. One being that blending a clean uneffected signal is the preferred method for retaining low end, and the other being to use a crossover to designate which frequencies are to be effected and which are not, and then to mix those to taste. Best I can tell, is that there are pros and cons to each method, but after much reading, I'm leaning toward the crossover and mix method...
That said, aside from the crossover and mixing back of unaffected low frequencies, I would also like to experiment with using parallel effect loops as opposed to just running pedals in series.
My question is..., Is there a know production piece of gear that covers all the necessary bases with regards to crossover function, multiple parallel loops, and mixing?
I think I have read about most of the gear out there, but each seem to be lacking at least one thing.
I'm not against using 2 pieces to acheive these options as long as it's reasonably practical budget, size, and functionality.

Thanks, Dan

 

[Bassmike62]

I'm currently using the paralell looping approach. On my board (sigged), I have a Saturnworks bass dedicated 2 channel looper + dry channel. That pedal also has level knobs, so I guess I'm blending dry/wets also. I have effect pedals in each channel and always have bottom end, no matter what's on. The only crossover I've had were the ones on MXR's Bass Chorus Deluxe and Stereo Chorus pedals, so my experience is limited. My set up works very well for me.

 

[themarshall]

Brimstone Ouroboros and sfx Crossover and Mix (X&M) are loop crossover pedals.

 

[bassbrad]

Wounded Paw Wounded Paw, Bass and Guitar Effects and Blenders , Radial Engineering and Rolls.com may offer solutions.

 

[Bassmike62]

Here's a pic of my board. The Saturnworks pedal is top left, with th UFO on it.

Saturnworks Pedals - Shop

 

[jimfist]

Just a quick side-note, but be careful when doing parallel blend mixing of digital effects. You may or may not get some weird tone issues when combining a largely dry parallel effect tone (with its digital latency) with the dry depending on the effect and how it is mixed, assuming the parallel mix pedal is analog and has no inherent latency of its own. Don't be alarmed, but just keep this in the back of your mind if you're mixing digital fx with your dry signal.

 

[theculprit]

I'm currently using the paralell looping approach. On my board (sigged), I have a Saturnworks bass dedicated 2 channel looper + dry channel. That pedal also has level knobs, so I guess I'm blending dry/wets also. I have effect pedals in each channel and always have bottom end, no matter what's on. The only crossover I've had were the ones on MXR's Bass Chorus Deluxe and Stereo Chorus pedals, so my experience is limited. My set up works very well for me.

Thanks Mike. I've looked at the saturnworks pedals. Aside from not having a pedal option with a crossover one thing that concerns me is the lack of polarity switches. Polarity may or may not be an issue with my gear, but I'd rather be prepared for it. Looks like a good company with alot of interesting utility pedals though, but I'm looking to do the mixing of clean uneffected lows rather than straight blending at this point.

Brimstone Ouroboros and sfx Crossover and Mix (X&M) are loop crossover pedals.

Thank you. I've looked at the Ouroboros and the sfx X&M, and the best I can tell, the Ouroboros pedal can only give you the option of a parallel loop OR crossover and then mix, but not both simultaneous. I would love to be wrong about this. And the SFX looks only to offer crossover and mix but no second parallel mix loop. Good looking gear, and both I would consider for a 2 pedal solution. Probably would lean toward the SFX x&m. But damn that Ouroboros pedal would be perfect, for me, if it had 3 loops which could be designated (by switch) as high or low frequency parallel loops. I don't know that I would ever need an effect loop for just low frequencies, so just having 2 loops in parallel and the ability to blend clean uneffected lows at the same time would be exactly what I'm looking for right now. That SFX XnM pedal would be perfect with another loop in parallel to be used as a second high frequency loop for effects, but might be a good choice coupled with a simple parallel loop pedal that has polarity switches.

Wounded Paw Wounded Paw, Bass and Guitar Effects and Blenders , Radial Engineering and Rolls.com may offer solutions.

Thanks Brad. I've checked out all of these except Radial. Wounded paw offers no crossover options, but could be an option if I had to go 2 pedal. The Radial crossover looks good, but needs buffer for passive bass (not a deal breaker), and without a way to mix highs and lows back together, would required more out of the second pedal choice.

Just a quick side-note, but be careful when doing parallel blend mixing of digital effects. You may or may not get some weird tone issues when combining a largely dry parallel effect tone (with its digital latency) with the dry depending on the effect and how it is mixed, assuming the parallel mix pedal is analog and has no inherent latency of its own. Don't be alarmed, but just keep this in the back of your mind if you're mixing digital fx with your dry signal.

Thanks. I'm guessing this is just a trial an error kind of thing? Is there any way to reasonably predict outcome based on equipment used. I've got tech21, joyo, darkglass, digitech, and boss dirt pedals as options right now, but currently just using the Joyo american and california sound pedals, and the DG b7k ultra (which may be coming off the board in favor of a vintage microtubes).

 

[jimfist]

Thanks. I'm guessing this is just a trial an error kind of thing? Is there any way to reasonably predict outcome based on equipment used. I've got tech21, joyo, darkglass, digitech, and boss dirt pedals as options right now, but currently just using the Joyo american and california sound pedals, and the DG b7k ultra (which may be coming off the board in favor of a vintage microtubes).

Again, I don't want to make a big deal of this, but just suggest you keep this in mind when doing parallel blends, in the event things start to sound unexpectedly weird.

Here's what you do: individually go through each pedal you plan to use in parallel, and set the parallel effect to 100% dry, and blend it with the actual dry signal. If the tone remains the same, but just louder, you're good to go. But if you start to hear a strange hollowness when combining the parallel (set to dry) with the dry feed, you'll know right away that there is a digital conversion latency offset. (Note that some digital effects might have a true analog bypass, so in those cases you'll need to test with the pedal engaged with mix/blend set to yield a dry tone. If that's not possible, then you just test the pedal engaged with the effect on...see below.)

This in and of itself still is NOT necessarily a problem depending on what the effect is. If it's an echo or reverb, the addition of a couple milliseconds (latency) delay to a 100% wet delay/reverb effect is hardly noticed. So, to further drill down, set up each parallel effect pedal as 100% wet in its real world usage situation, and see if it causes that same "hollow" sound to happen. Generally, any effect that is time-domain based (echo, reverb, chorus, flange, etc.) is manageable. Any effect that is TONAL in nature (EQ, preamp pedal, overdrive, etc.) *might* be an issue.

 

[theculprit]

Again, I don't want to make a big deal of this, but just suggest you keep this in mind when doing parallel blends, in the event things start to sound unexpectedly weird.

Here's what you do: individually go through each pedal you plan to use in parallel, and set the parallel effect to 100% dry, and blend it with the actual dry signal. If the tone remains the same, but just louder, you're good to go. But if you start to hear a strange hollowness when combining the parallel (set to dry) with the dry feed, you'll know right away that there is a digital conversion latency offset. (Note that some digital effects might have a true analog bypass, so in those cases you'll need to test with the pedal engaged with mix/blend set to yield a dry tone. If that's not possible, then you just test the pedal engaged with the effect on...see below.)

This in and of itself still is NOT necessarily a problem depending on what the effect is. If it's an echo or reverb, the addition of a couple milliseconds (latency) delay to a 100% wet delay/reverb effect is hardly noticed. So, to further drill down, set up each parallel effect pedal as 100% wet in its real world usage situation, and see if it causes that same "hollow" sound to happen. Generally, any effect that is time-domain based (echo, reverb, chorus, flange, etc.) is manageable. Any effect that is TONAL in nature (EQ, preamp pedal, overdrive, etc.) *might* be an issue.

Ok. I'm wondering if this will be an issue at all if I'm technically not doing any clean blending of same frequencies with the loop pedal. If I'm sending a high frequency (ie. Everything above 250 Hz) to a parallel looper pedal with 2 loops, and do no clean blening with the loop pedal and then send that signal back to the crossover/mix pedal where the uneffected clean sub 250 Hz is mixed back in, will that still have potential delay issues? Or is this an issue inherent with 2 or more parallel loops independent of clean blending?

 

[Bassmike62]

Just a quick side-note, but be careful when doing parallel blend mixing of digital effects. You may or may not get some weird tone issues when combining a largely dry parallel effect tone (with its digital latency) with the dry depending on the effect and how it is mixed, assuming the parallel mix pedal is analog and has no inherent latency of its own. Don't be alarmed, but just keep this in the back of your mind if you're mixing digital fx with your dry signal.

Thx. I wasn't aware of this potential issue and I'm not having this problem for now, but I'll be on the lookout for it.

 

[ObsessiveArcher]

Checkout the "bloop" from Damnation Audio:
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You can control the phase, but not the frequency mixing. Maybe this could be the ticket regardless?

 

[Wasnex]

Lately I've been getting the bug to try some clean blending (and parallel looping) mainly with dirt pedals as a start, and I've immersed myself in reading about different pedal optiins to acheive these goals. There seems to be 2 schools of thought. One being that blending a clean uneffected signal is the preferred method for retaining low end, and the other being to use a crossover to designate which frequencies are to be effected and which are not, and then to mix those to taste. Best I can tell, is that there are pros and cons to each method, but after much reading, I'm leaning toward the crossover and mix method...
That said, aside from the crossover and mixing back of unaffected low frequencies, I would also like to experiment with using parallel effect loops as opposed to just running pedals in series.
My question is..., Is there a know production piece of gear that covers all the necessary bases with regards to crossover function, multiple parallel loops, and mixing?
I think I have read about most of the gear out there, but each seem to be lacking at least one thing.
I'm not against using 2 pieces to acheive these options as long as it's reasonably practical budget, size, and functionality.

Thanks, Dan

I suggest adding a couple of ideas to your experiment. First, add an EQ in series with your OD/distortion pedal. Try the EQ pre and post distortion so you understand how it functions different in each position. Second, consider adding compression to your clean channel. Why? Distortion results in compression. So when you blend your uncompressed clean signal and your compressed distorted signal back together they may not integrate as well as you want.

Another thing to consider is simultaneously using multiple low gain pedals instead of one high gain pedal. You can run two different pedals in parallel, or stack multiple pedals in series. IMHO this approach allows you to get a higher gain sound that is more harmonically complex and less fizzy.

 

[theculprit]

I suggest adding a couple of ideas to your experiment. First, add an EQ in series with your OD/distortion pedal. Try the EQ pre and post distortion so you understand how it function different in each position. Second, consider adding compression to your clean channel. Why? Distortion results in compression. So when you blend you uncompressed clean signal and your compressed distorted signal back together they may not integrate as well as you want.

Another thing to consider is simultaneously using multiple low gain pedals instead of one high gain pedal. You can run two different pedals in parallel, or stack multiple pedals in series. IMHO this approach allows you to get a higher gain sound that is more harmonically complex and less fizzy.

Thanks. All good suggestions, and things to consider if I ever take the plunge with this cross and mix or straight blending.

 

[theculprit]

For those interested, I sketched out exactly what I would be looking for in a pedal solution. This may already exist, but if it does, I haven't found it. Key elements are the crossover and parallel loops. I have no background in electronics, and that will probably be evident by those of you who know how this stuff works, but this gets the general idea in something other than word form. If I want to have something like this custom built, suggestions for builders are appreciated.
The idea is to have the bass signal enter the pedal, have a master bypass switch... and split the signal via adjustable crossover into high and low frequency, send both high and low to 3 effect loops which individually can be designated to receive high, low, or full bass signal via a 3 way toggle, then through a gain knob for each loop, then loops 1 and 2 can be switched to run as parallel or series, then loop send and loop return, phase switches (or rotary phase adjustment knob), then through a master volume knob before output.
Perhaps there could be gain adjustment after each of the effect returns? Maybe there could be a one knob compressor circuit and/or high and low pass filters on loop #3? Anyway, seems like it would be cool to me. It could be the MOAB pedal... mother of all blenders.

 

[Lydvest]

For those interested, I sketched out exactly what I would be looking for in a pedal solution. This may already exist, but if it does, I haven't found it. Key elements are the crossover and parallel loops. I have no background in electronics, and that will probably be evident by those of you who know how this stuff works, but this gets the general idea in something other than word form. If I want to have something like this custom built, suggestions for builders are appreciated.
The idea is to have the bass signal enter the pedal, have a master bypass switch... and split the signal via adjustable crossover into high and low frequency, send both high and low to 3 effect loops which individually can be designated to receive high, low, or full bass signal via a 3 way toggle, then through a gain knob for each loop, then loops 1 and 2 can be switched to run as parallel or series, then loop send and loop return, phase switches (or rotary phase adjustment knob), then through a master volume knob before output.
Perhaps there could be gain adjustment after each of the effect returns? Maybe there could be a one knob compressor circuit and/or high and low pass filters on loop #3? Anyway, seems like it would be cool to me. It could be the MOAB pedal... mother of all blenders.
View attachment 3276451

I see you are on your good way down the rabbit hole... I'm sooo deep down there ))
First, did you find a solution to your wishes?

About the issue with blending digital and analog..
Any digital pedal or multi effect unit will apply some latency, as the A/D and D/A conversion unavoidably will take some time. Mixed in parallel with an analog pedal (or just analog bypass or clean) that latency will mess up the phase between the the two. Most noticeably from the low mids and all the way upwards, which might be just the area you want to blend stuff. The only way to get the two coherent is to apply a latency to the analog/bypassed/clean signal also. But as mentioned before, if the digital signal is reverb or delay, and maybe even modulation effects, you might be good if you blend in only the wet signal from the digital unit.
A different solution could be a digital multi effect, including distortion or other harmonics blocks, where you can do all blending of fun stuff internally in that unit, while leaving the lows in the analog domain. The crossover filters between the two should then be steep, preferably 24dB/oct. The phase difference could maybe be negligible down in the 100Hz or lower, but I would set it in an area where the bass is often scooped or not so important anyway, f.x the 300-500 area, eventually checking whether flipping the phase of the digital unit/highs helps. But it won't be perfect, and I guess not being able to use analog pedals takes away some of the fun, and the possibility to make the setup unique.

Can I ask - how important is it for you to blend two different pedal signals in parallel in the highs, rather that just being able to have them in series with a wet/clean blend for both individually? If you get me..