Pedulla Truss Rod Blues

[Bruce Johnson]

Somewhere in these Pedulla repair threads it was stated that some fretboards were attached with an epoxy, which is presenting some challenges.

Yes, the fingerboard on the first Pedulla we're repairing, Inara's, appears to be put on with epoxy. The standard method of softening the glue with a hot clothing iron and a putty knife didn't work on it. We may have to machine the fingerboard off with a router. But before I do that, I'm experimenting with trying to get the hot wire knife tool working. That may be the solution to simplify the truss rod repairs on these Pedullas. But, I'll rout it off if I have to.

Fishheadjoe had no trouble getting the fingerboard off of his bolt-on Rapture, so I'm assuming that it was put on with a normal Titebond-type glue.

Once the fingerboard is off, one way or another, then we'll dig into the problem of the truss rod itself. Why did it fail and what's the best way to repair it? Should I just make up a replica of what Mike put in there, or should I redesign and improve it?

 

[Gianni "Orlandez" Orlati]

... routing a Pedulla's fretboard ? ... scary indeed ... all fretboard or just a section?

 

[Bruce Johnson]

... routing a Pedulla's fretboard ? ... scary indeed ... all fretboard or just a section?

The whole thing. I set the instrument up in a special routing fixture and rout the entire fingerboard off, turning it into a pile of sawdust. That leaves a clean flat surface without touching the wood of the neck. Then, after repairing/replacing the truss rod, I fit and glue on a new fingerboard blank. Then radius it, slot it, dots, frets, etc., back to original specs.

That's the usual technique if a neck needs internal surgery. Ungluing and reattaching the original fingerboard is often more work than routing the old one off. And there's a lot of risk to it. On electric basses, the fingerboards are often quite thin. When you try to peel them off, they can crack or twist up like a pretzel. On basses with rare inlays or something really special about the fingerboard, we'll try to save the original. Sometimes successfully, sometimes not. Most of the time the fingerboard isn't high enough value to save.

I've routed fingerboards off of about 200 necks over the years. Lots of vintage Ampegs (my specialty), plus many guitar necks for my Luthier clients, and various repairs.

 

[Gianni "Orlandez" Orlati]

The whole thing. I set the instrument up in a special routing fixture and rout the entire fingerboard off, turning it into a pile of sawdust. That leaves a clean flat surface without touching the wood of the neck. Then, after repairing/replacing the truss rod, I fit and glue on a new fingerboard blank. Then radius it, slot it, dots, frets, etc., back to original specs.

That's the usual technique if a neck needs internal surgery. Ungluing and reattaching the original fingerboard is often more work than routing the old one off. And there's a lot of risk to it. On electric basses, the fingerboards are often quite thin. When you try to peel them off, they can crack or twist up like a pretzel. On basses with rare inlays or something really special about the fingerboard, we'll try to save the original. Sometimes successfully, sometimes not. Most of the time the fingerboard isn't high enough value to save.

I've routed fingerboards off of about 200 necks over the years. Lots of vintage Ampegs (my specialty), plus many guitar necks for my Luthier clients, and various repairs.

Got it ! Thanks for the explanation !

 

[nolabottom]

I am not a luthier, have no idea how to install a new trussrod, and this is probably a terrible idea. That said, would removing the fingerboard, say just to the second or third fret line from the nut, allow enough access to work on the trussrod, or maybe even remove and replace it? Just trying to be creative and avoid major bass surgery.

 

[Gianni "Orlandez" Orlati]

I am not a luthier, have no idea how to install a new trussrod, and this is probably a terrible idea. That said, would removing the fingerboard, say just to the second or third fret line from the nut, allow enough access to work on the trussrod, or maybe even remove and replace it? Just trying to be creative and avoid major bass surgery.

That's why I was asking about removing the whole fretboard of only the end section ...

 

[Teacher]

I am not a luthier, have no idea how to install a new trussrod, and this is probably a terrible idea. That said, would removing the fingerboard, say just to the second or third fret line from the nut, allow enough access to work on the trussrod, or maybe even remove and replace it? Just trying to be creative and avoid major bass surgery.

It is always a possibility, but there are a couple of issues that are tough to overcome. First, you'd need to find replacement wood that virtually matches the rest in all respects, and that's VERY difficult. Second, there are the issues (movement etc.) that having two pieces of wood act as one presents. Good brainstorming, man, just would be better to replace the whole thing.

 

[Bruce Johnson]

It is always a possibility, but there are a couple of issues that are tough to overcome. First, you'd need to find replacement wood that virtually matches the rest in all respects, and that's VERY difficult. Second, there are the issues (movement etc.) that having two pieces of wood act as one presents. Good brainstorming, man, just would be better to replace the whole thing.

Yes, like Teacher said, splicing on a portion of the fingerboard and getting it to match and stay stable would be tricky. Can be done, but a lot of work and risk.

And, it's unlikely that I'd really be able to repair the truss rod through a small opening like that. In the type of truss rod used in these Pedullas, the whole upper rod rotates inside the neck, inside threads at both ends. In these cases, for some reason the rod has locked up solidly enough that turning the tool has sheared off the end of the steel rod. Even if I somehow managed to grab hold of the rod again with another tool, what are the chances that it will now start turning? If one of these is snapped off, it's almost certain to me that the whole assembly needs to be pulled out and replaced.

The most likely cause of the problem is that the threads on either or both ends have corroded and seized. The rod appears to be mild steel. If the threaded blocks at either end are also steel, the threads may have corroded together from a small amount of moisture from the air slowly seeping in. On the '60's Ampeg Scroll Basses that I specialize in, that's the biggest reason why their truss rods fail. They used a steel nut on threads on a steel rod. Over the years they corrode together and lock up solid. That's what I suspect is the problem here. Mike may have used a drop of oil/lubricant on the threads when he installed them, but a few instruments may not have gotten enough.

There's also a chance that the wood inside the neck surrounding the rod has swollen and is squeezing the rod. He probably either allowed enough clearance and/or used a slippery sleeve over the rod to keep this from happening. But maybe it didn't work in some cases, and the wood grabbed the rod tight enough that the end snapped off when turned.

These are things I'll be looking for when I open up these Pedullas. How is the truss rod supposed to work, and why have a small percentage of them failed? These failures aren't "operator error". For some reason, the rods refused to turn strongly enough that the tool snapped the rod or rounded off the end.

 

[Gianni "Orlandez" Orlati]

Nice reply ... Mike should have used grease for this purpose instead of oil, much more stable and durable and less subject to evaporation ..

 

[Bruce Johnson]

Nice reply ... Mike should have used grease for this purpose instead of oil, much more stable and durable and less subject to evaporation ..

Yep, and he may have used grease. But grease has its limitations too, particularly in tight fitting threads under load. My favorite lubricant for steel-on-steel is moly gun oil. It's very thin, but sticky. It's made for lubricating the tight steel-on-steel clearances in guns.

For reference, almost all the truss rods that I build for my own basses and clients use stainless steel rods and brass threaded nuts. That combination of brass threads on stainless threads is nearly impossible to lock up from corrosion or galling. And I add a dab of automotive wheel bearing grease for extra good measure. I want my truss rods to still work 100 years from now. In New Orleans.

 

[nolabottom]

Thanks for the great reply. One thing that gets me is that a luthier who set the bass up 8 months ago said he had no trouble adjusting the truss rod. I go to adjust it a few weeks back, once a slot for a screwdriver was created, and it is frozen solid in both directions, not moving a bit. How can a truss rod freeze that quickly? The bass has been well cared for and kept in a climate controlled environment.

 

[nolabottom]

Just reread your last post Bruce. Full disclosure. I live and play music below sea level in New Orleans where the humidity averages like 150% and you feel like you're walking under a wet blanket at midnight in August. Still, the bass has only lived here for a year and my AC keeps the humidity just right. And yes, pass interference should have been called.

 

[nolabottom]

I did communicate with Pedulla and confirmed what others have already said. They do not offer a service to repair the truss rods nor do they sell them. I asked if Mike could give this group some perspective and/or ideas on how to approach a repair but the response i received was along the lines of it would be too hard to describe, each case may be different, etc. They also seemed to be of the opinion that this is a very rare circumstance although they have heard of a few issues. As far as cause, the response I received led me to beleive they view user error as causing the issues overall. I looked up truss rod issues for other high end makers on talk bass including Alembic, Fodera, Elrick, Ken Smith and could not find a single thread related to similar issues with those instruments. Search Pedulla truss rod and you will get quite a few hits. Interesting.

I had a recording gig that required a fretless and was able to get my bass playable by heating the neck a bit, which I realize is not ideal. The neck was really stiff and did not react to heat as easily as others, which I assume is a good thing. I'll keep an eye on this thread to see how things are coming along with others' repairs. I'm also working with my luthier friend to find a creative solution. I'll share whatever works (or doesn't)

 

[nolabottom]

Has anyone made any progress with their neck repairs?

 

[Bruce Johnson]

Not here, unfortunately. You may have read on the other threads about my long time friend, business partner, and veteran Luthier Mike Lipe passing away unexpectedly on December 27. I spent much of January literally cleaning out his shop and selling off his machines for his estate. But that's done now. Back to the regularly scheduled work in February.

But it's cold here right now! The Polar Vortex is passing over Fillmore for a few days! We've got temperatures down in the 30's outside overnight! There could even be some ice here! For an hour or two. My shop is 58 as I write, which is a little chilly for working with machinery. But I'll survive and it will warm up next week.

My buddy Alex has faded out somewhat right now too. He's busy trying to find himself a good full time job, so he can move out of the house and get his own car. I can't blame him a bit, those are important things when you are 20. He still wants to hang around here and learn to be a Luthier, over time. But he has to get the big things going first.

So, I'll probably end up doing most of the Pedulla surgery myself.

 

[nolabottom]

Very sorry to hear about your friend Mike. I can only imagine how rough the last few months have been considering your loss, the crazy weather, and everything else going on. I hope things calm down for you so you can get back in your groove soon.

 

[jdthebassman]

I had this same issue back in 1990 on my mvp 6. part of the reason was the truss rod tool, you could not get the proper angle to turn the nut. when I took it back to mike he tried to turn it and was unable. since I had just purchased it he made me a whole new bass to my specs. I tried to convince mike to use 2 conventual truss rods out of fear this may happen again but mike stated that this had not happened before and the design was fine. fast forward about 7 years ago I noticed that he had different adjustment tool that was much better. living in mass I went down to his factory in rockland picked up the wrench and discussed this issue with him. he said that when you turn the nut (left to tighten right to loosen) you have to help the neck go back in order to take the tension off the nut. at the time he did offer the service of replacing the rod system for a hefty sum of $950. I checked out the web site and he does offer repairs except the truss rod and I am surprised that he wont repair this issue. I suppose this is coming back to haunt him and he does not want to deal with it. so far (knock on wood) I have not had an issue but I would suggest that everyone reach out to him and let him know about this problem. maybe he would help us out and give some solutions on how the system works and how we could fix it.

 

[Inara]

So sorry to hear about the loss of your friend Mike, Bruce.

 

[nolabottom]

Nothing new from me on the repair. I'm just trying to get by on gigs by raising the saddles a bit. As I mentioned earlier, I was able to file a slot in the truss rod end to try to turn it with a screwdriver but had no luck turning it. Does anyone have an opinion on whether or not it makes sense to try some dry lubricant or something to see if that frees anything up? Or will I just make things worse? The luthier who adjusted the bass said he had no problem adjusting the neck in April of last year. Eight months later, after living on a stand in a climate controlled environment, it won't turn in either direction. What could possibly cause that?

 

[Beetfarm615]

My '97 rapture's truss rod is rounded over like others I've read about. I've dealt with the increased relief by using lower tension kalium strings. This keeps the bass playable but not my favorite gauge (.118 B string). Any idea of what necks are glue vs epoxy? Hopefully bolt ons are glue.