Double Bass Pegs on bass??

[LedReign]

The tuners and the nut on this bass look very unusual to me. It looks like it has tuning pegs instead of gears. I know that basses had pegs before modern tuning machines were introduced, but I assumed I would never see a bass fitted with pegs. I can only think of how they could be inferior to modern machines. Is this really what I’m seeing in this video? Does anyone know anything about this bass? Are there bass luthiers that still use pegs instead of gears?

 

[Eli Brockway]

Hat pegs!

You can see the actual keys for the tuning machines sticking out behind the scroll there. The outer "pegs" are just a decorative thing, to give the bass an outline that falls more in-line with the violin, viola, and cello. They'll have larger diameter wooden shafts on the inside of the pegbox as well, not the smaller metal ones most of us bassists use, but the actual mechanism is the same worm gear and cog that we all have to work with.

This man has absolutely massive fake pegs on his bass:

And even my bass has them!

(Credit for the photo, bass, and for my forced attempt at a smile go to @Greg Clinkingbeard)

 

[jj.833]

When I was at high school, I made a discovery in school's attic: an EUB body strip of bridge, tuners etc. I traded it with the janitor for a bottle of cognac. My father, skilled in everything, made all the missing parts for me. He also made the tuning pegs from walnut wood. I remember he worked on them very hard, as they had to be very exact and the holes were not all exactly the same. In the end it worked, as when you tuned it, it stayed tuned (for an hour). But practically, it was unusable: the slightest possible rotation of the peg resulted in changing the pitch at least a halftone. As a begginer who could hardly hear whether the bass is in tune, it was a really an invincible issue for me.

I'd wonder if the real tuning pegs were actually used in bass crafting ever. Huygens invented pendulum clocks in 1652, so we can assume that a precise cogwheel surely was not a novelty in times of common practice period. I can't think of any advantage of pegs over machines. Does anyone know better?

 

[Eli Brockway]

When I was at high school, I made a discovery in school's attic: an EUB body strip of bridge, tuners etc. I traded it with the janitor for a bottle of cognac. My father, skilled in everything, made all the missing parts for me. He also made the tuning pegs from walnut wood. I remember he worked on them very hard, as they had to be very exact and the holes were not all exactly the same. In the end it worked, as when you tuned it, it stayed tuned (for an hour). But practically, it was unusable: the slightest possible rotation of the peg resulted in changing the pitch at least a halftone. As a begginer who could hardly hear whether the bass is in tune, it was a really an invincible issue for me.

I'd wonder if the real tuning pegs were actually used in bass crafting ever. Huygens invented pendulum clocks in 1652, so we can assume that a precise cogwheel surely was not a novelty in times of common practice period. I can't think of any advantage of pegs over machines. Does anyone know better?

I'm fairly certain that by the time the modern double bass was a thing, it was with actual machined tuners, not just friction pegs. However, the most immediate predecessor, the D violone, was done with friction pegs. Could be wrong about the first part, but from what I remember, period artwork shows the double basses all having machine tuners, and once we start getting actual pictures they're definitely all gears.

 

[jj.833]

the D violone, was done with friction pegs

Invalid Link Removed. Actually, with low tension gut strings, the tuning might have been less steep. And perhaps they had some special chalk or something to make the tuners more flexible and stable at the same moment. Does somebody use pegs today?

 

[Martin Beer]

With the way the wooden pegs are tapered and fit into tapered holes, hatpeg bass tuners do seem like an incremental step from friction pegs, as if the gearing was an addition to the existing concept rather than a complete redesign. I have geared wooden hatpegs on my bass - they look cool but functionally I tolerate them rather than love them!

 

[Ed S]

I've talked w/ several fiddle players/makers, and have heard more comment on moving the other way - citing the advantages of geared tuners on fiddles.

 

[Who da Ville]

geared tuners on fiddles.

I've only played with one fiddler in my life (Irish tunes), & am sure that you all know more about this than do I. This person's fiddle had hat peg tuners that she only used to get the string tensions close. All fine tuning was done with adjustors on (or near) the bridge.

 

[Mark 63]

During a brief attempt at cello, I turned a tuning peg a quarter turn. The string snapped immediately. Geared tuners are much more manageable.

 

[carl h.]

While some fiddlers may prefer machines, violinists do not. I doubt you will ever see a violin with tuning machines in a professional violin section of any symphony. I own dozens of violins and the only place I see any benefit to machines is on 5 string violins. 3 pegs on one side of a violin's peg box is too crowded for most adults fingers to comfortably adjust the middle peg. I prefer guitar style inline machines in that situation as the 5th string is generally useless acoustically on a violin but nice to have on electric so the acoustic implications of the machines are irrelevant.

 

[eerbrev]

worm gear tuners are extant on instruments for around two hundred years, maybe longer. I'm not an expert on that part of historical bass, but what light reading I've done credits an Austrian guitar maker (and arpeggione inventor!) Johann Stauffer with the invention in the very early 1800s. Before then, there were other systems, such as ratcheting gears, to help keep thicker lower strings in place. Also, as someone stated, friction tuning pegs are much simpler to use with gut strings, which adjust to pitch much more slowly in comparison to steel strings. "Hat Pegs", or wooden pegs with a gear encircling them, are almost exclusively a decorative decision for any modern maker, with some small argument being made (one that I'm not really convinced by, but here we are) that they weigh less, and thus improve the sound somewhat.

I *do* know someone who has a Viennese-tuned bass that they had modified during restoration to have friction pegs on it, and frankly, they regret the decision. There's just no real practical reason to do so and it makes tuning it much more difficult.

I've played a non-zero amount of G Violone (I had a viol consort class in my ACP), and while I got used to the pegs, I generally found them to be increasingly impractical the larger the strings got. After a while, it's quite a lot of tension to move and adjust when you need to retune - which, while not as often as some gut-haters will tell you, is still often enough to be a bother. I've never played a D violone, but I can only assume that the issue is the same, that the lower strings end up taking quite a lot of wrist strength to counteract the friction required to keep them in place.

So, in a TL;DR to your answer, no. No modern maker is building modern double basses without machine tuners. Violone players use them, but you're probably not going to play one unless you're a nerd like me.

 

[Ed S]

While some fiddlers may prefer machines, violinists do not. ...

Well, tradition is a funny thing.

I've got no dog in this fight - but I've heard some violinists speak disdainfully of fine tuners! Whatever floats your boat, I say. Just play the damned thing!

 

[fdeck]

I have a theory about hat pegs, which is that the length of wood outside the pegbox provides some strength to keep the peg from being split by the hole that has to be drilled through it for the cog, and the torque on the cog.

 

[robobass]

I don't think I'd say that hatpegs are an advantage over solid metal designs in any way but one. If well fit they work fine. I had a bass with them for a long time. I removed the screws that held the pegs to the metal ring on the gear and drilled through the peg so that I could just use a thru pin. This made string changes 20x faster.

 

[neddyrow]

I asked Upton to put Hatpeg tuners on my bass solely because they look cool

 

[robobass]

I recently made a replacement set from boxwood which I dyed black. No need to waste ebony for this application. I can do it for others who need replacements, but box is no cheaper than ebony. I'd prefer to do it in beech, which my luthier friends say is fine for this. It can also be black.

 

[rickwolff]

My fake hatpegs.

 

[eerbrev]

I recently made a replacement set from boxwood which I dyed black. No need to waste ebony for this application. I can do it for others who need replacements, but box is no cheaper than ebony. I'd prefer to do it in beech, which my luthier friends say is fine for this. It can also be black.


View attachment 4261048

Definitely. I think Beech is great for something like this - it's tough as old shoe leather, which is why they use it for broom handles. It'll stand up well to being wrapped under tension IMO.

 

[Anthony White]

but I've heard some violinists speak disdainfully of fine tuners!

I've asked some of my violinist friends about this, because tuning pegs seems such a hassle to me. My recollection is that this stems from the status-markers that were established during the transition to widespread use of steel strings.

When violin strings were all gut, and could be tuned effectively with just pegs, as the guts are flexible and can withstand quite a turn. Steels can't take a big twist of a tuning peg, and a steel string will just break, so fine tuners became useful/necessary. Steels were also widely used on cheap and student instruments, so fine tuners became associated with cheap/student instruments. Valuable instruments transitioned away from (more expensive) guts slowly, and would have three guts and maybe a steel high-E string, so would have just one fine tuner. And so tradition is born - a single fine tuner is a status symbol, and multiple fine tuners indicate a down-market instrument.

(Not even my opinion. Just a story I've been told, possibly apocryphal. Buy I enjoy it as a story, and it plays to my biases...)

 

[Roger Mouton]

"some small argument being made (one that I'm not really convinced by, but here we are) that they weigh less, and thus improve the sound somewhat."

There may be another thread somewhere about this weight issue. Apologies for hijacking this thread. I briefly discussed weight in an email with Jake at The Bass Spa. We talked about the weight of the endpin and the weight of the tuners and that if they were both lighter the bass could sound better. I have a heavy Gallery Strings end pin on one of my instruments and factory-bass Tyrolean plate tuners.

The last time I was in Jon Peterson's shop (RIP) he had an old Sloan tuner on the bench. I picked it up and was surprised at how heavy it was. I just couldn't imagine the weight of 4 of them on a bass. The ebony shafts of hat peg tuners would certainly reduce a lot of the weight.

So....I'm thinking a carbon fiber end pin, Laborie style possibly, and hat peg tuners would lighten my instrument considerably. As to the sound? If I ever make these changes I'll post the results.