Double Bass Phil Jones Double Four

[basss]

I wouldn't want it any bigger and would not sacrifice size for more ins/outs. There are other slightly bigger amps out there if that's what you need.

I've done a few more gigs with mine. I've been getting comments about my sound as well - every time I've used it - it's kinda weird actually. I think guys like it because it delivers a focused warm sound without excessive low end. It sounds like an extension of an acoustic sound vs. an exaggeration of one. Not too loud but able to be heard.

Last night I did a gig with a quartet led by a hard blowing tenor player and drummer that didn't hold back much. 'Loud acoustic jazz' volume. It did start to get buried when the drummer was really hitting hard but for the most part sounded great. Yes the band leader commented about how he liked the sound. Pretty amazing the amount of sound that comes out of this little thing.

 

[MR PC]

I really doubt that two 1/4" jacks on the rear of the unit would require a change in cabinet size. But adding those features after the initial blueprint prolly would represent a lot of post design time, and that time is money.

I bring this up because I was using Ultrasound acoustic guitar amps for a while, and they included these features, as well as offering a straight up 2 x 8" powered speaker that matched the amp. Real nice, real handy.

 

[basss]

It does have a line out. You could do a line out to the main input with a level matching device in between if you really need to use two of them. I'd personally just use a bigger amp in that situation.

I'm using a small lunch cooler bag to schlep mine around. Cost about $12, has a shoulder strap and the insulation provides a bit of padding. I saw a pic at a Japanese website of one being offered with a gig bag. Maybe they'll be coming to the U.S. soon?

 

[Jon Moody]

Of course the marketing and contracted manufacturing aspect. Personaly, I'd rather have a modular set up than moving to a larger amp. The added bonus of the modular approach is that you always have a backup unit exactly like the one that isn't available, for whatever reason. Just my experience from owning lots of gear over the years.

Trust me, I know and appreciate the modular aspect, which is why I have a number of amps and cabs myself. Problem with such a small amp like the Double Four is that, even if it can run with more cabs, how much more volume are we really talking? A 75w amp going up to 125w is going to be minimal, even with two extra speakers (at least).

Besides, by itself, the Double Four can handle a lot more than most people are going to think by just looking at it. We've already got one person here using it in a big band setting, and I'll be using this extensively in musical theatre pits, where amps usually twice the wattage and amount of speakers are usually the norm.

I really doubt that two 1/4" jacks on the rear of the unit would require a change in cabinet size.

I'm enclosing a shot of the back of the Double Four, which I hope should settle this. The entire back is a heat sink. The AC power supply is a separate unit that was pulled out of the amp to save space, and plugs in on the top next to the on/off switch. There really is nowhere to put anything else. It's putting in the extra input jacks somewhere on the exterior as well as the extra circuitry on the inside. Both will make it nearly impossible to keep it this size.

And as mentioned a couple of times, there already is a line out, so you could feasibly link two Double Fours together; you just wouldn't have the option of running one as a master and one as a slave. Maybe, if there's enough demand, Phil may look into a complementary cabinet that would match the Double Four, but again, that's not the original intent.

 

[Jon Moody]

Couple of answers from Phil.

CARRYING BAG: At this point, there is are no immediate plans for a bag or case. However, one Double Four user was nice enough to send Phil a link to a case that he's been using; I'm including that here.

http://www.amazon.com/Arriba-Ac-115-Transport-Dimensions-9-5X9-5X13/dp/B000I23VG0

POWERED AMP FOR DOUBLE FOUR: It's definitely an option. The thought is, if/when it happens, it's going to be at least a 4x4.

DOUBLE FOUR LINE OUT: You can easily run the line out from one Double Four into the input on a second Double Four. Technically, the EQ on both are running independently, but if you keep the EQ flat on the DF you're treating as a "slave," it achieves the exact same thing without having to make a dedicated "power amp in" input.

Phil already tried this, and said the sound is huge. The sound of one DF is pretty loud, so together it's probably great.

OTHER COOL DF THINGS: They've been toying with a more powerful power adaptor (current is 3.25 amp and they are working on a 6 amp version). It will have an actual grounding plug as opposed to the virtual grounding of the smaller one. It doesn't make the DF any louder but, according to Phil, more dynamic and punchy.

 

[MR PC]

 

[Stick_Player]

Love my PJB Super-Flight Case!



Great products! Keep 'em coming!

 

[FenderP]

I wouldn't want it any bigger and would not sacrifice size for more ins/outs. There are other slightly bigger amps out there if that's what you need.

Exactly. It's a simple, no fuss amp with no bells and whistles that gets the job done. I love the fact it's simple EQ and such. I prefer that.

I've done a few more gigs with mine. I've been getting comments about my sound as well - every time I've used it - it's kinda weird actually. I think guys like it because it delivers a focused warm sound without excessive low end. It sounds like an extension of an acoustic sound vs. an exaggeration of one. Not too loud but able to be heard.

Pretty much echoes my experience (which I've mentioned). With the Rob Allen Deep 4 in a jazz setting it's just right. At one big band rehearsal a month ago one of the leaders of the band basically said, "It just sounds like how a bass should sound." I've always had comments about my good sound and tone, but never as much since I switched to the Double Four - this coming from a dyed in the wool Ampeg guy.

Last night I did a gig with a quartet led by a hard blowing tenor player and drummer that didn't hold back much. 'Loud acoustic jazz' volume. It did start to get buried when the drummer was really hitting hard but for the most part sounded great. Yes the band leader commented about how he liked the sound. Pretty amazing the amount of sound that comes out of this little thing.

This also pretty much echoes my experience in the big band. Once things get loud it almost feels like the sound gets swallowed but it really doesn't. The Double Four really worked well at the big band gig last week and I'm using it on a smaller, outdoor jazz gig tomorrow night.

What I have found (which is also in the manual) placement has a lot to do with things. I put it in a vertical position because if it's flat on the floor, I personally have a harder time hearing it. I feel it, but I need a bit more sound myself. To me this is really the only "shortcoming" (if you can call it that) of the Double Four.

CARRYING BAG: At this point, there is are no immediate plans for a bag or case. However, one Double Four user was nice enough to send Phil a link to a case that he's been using; I'm including that here.

http://www.amazon.com/Arriba-Ac-115-.../dp/B000I23VG0

THanks. I'll look at this. Would still prefer you guys do at least an official dust cover kind of thing even if no carry case.

BTW, this is the one in Japan I'd love to find (mid-way down):
http://ameblo.jp/rootwest/entry-11466125510.html

DOUBLE FOUR LINE OUT: You can easily run the line out from one Double Four into the input on a second Double Four. Technically, the EQ on both are running independently, but if you keep the EQ flat on the DF you're treating as a "slave," it achieves the exact same thing without having to make a dedicated "power amp in" input.

Phil already tried this, and said the sound is huge. The sound of one DF is pretty loud, so together it's probably great.

The gig last weekend was my test to see if I needed to do this (I don't) - I thought of that option already. Carrying two Double Fours would still be WAY lighter than any other one amp solution (like my B15, B18, or Polytone S15) I have in my arsenal. I own the Bergantino IP112 and had the extension cabinet - that was like 1000 watts combined. Crazy. I imagine chained Double Fours have a similar effect.

OTHER COOL DF THINGS: They've been toying with a more powerful power adaptor (current is 3.25 amp and they are working on a 6 amp version). It will have an actual grounding plug as opposed to the virtual grounding of the smaller one. It doesn't make the DF any louder but, according to Phil, more dynamic and punchy.

Let us know; I'd 'upgrade'.

 

[flatcat]

I'm working in Japan and bought one of these yesterday. It comes complete with the padded gig bag shown in the link in the previous post. I carried it in the mid-90 degree heat from the shop where I bought it, in Shibuya, back to the place I live, in Minato-Ku, about a 3 mile walk. It was totally manageable.

It was also on sale. I bought mine here, with the bag, brand new, for a little less than $400.

Another thing not mentioned so far, which I personally love: it has an autoswitching power supply, similar to what's on your computer. So it doesn't matter whether it's 50V/110 (as it is in my house), or 60/110 (as it is in the U.S.) or 60/240 (in Europe) - it will work in all of those places with only an adapter on the plug necessary. For me, this is a Godsend, since I go from place to place every few years. It was one reason I bought a ZT Lunchbox for my guitar adventures - similar thing.

So far it sounds excellent and I'm happy to have a practice amp that has a small footprint which weighs next to nothing. What's not to love?

Thank you, Phil!

 

[Onemanbanned]

I had back surgery in December and while recuperating, needed a lightweight combo amp for rehearsals. I figured it to be short term but now I am sold on these small amps - well, sort of. I wanted something cheap and obviously sonic quality would be the compromise. After some experimenting, I ended up ponying up for quality.

I was limited to 15 lbs of lifting for 6-8 weeks. At my locally-owned guitar shop, I picked up a Rocktron 8"-er (less than 20 lbs) for a hundred bucks. Of the small, cheap amps available, it sounded less cardboardy than others costing much more. Well, that was alright even with a noisy amp section, but it worked for the intended purposes until my first rehearsal with other players out of the house. The resulting answer was, I couldn't distinguish my bass even with the amp right next to my head.

Off I went to the fabled Guitar Center where I found the MarkBass Micro Mark. Much more prominence, low end, power and flexibility. But it still farted at higher levels. Nothing else compared to it for size and weight but it was $500.00 for the sucker.

Mean time, a ukelele player friend who came by to jam and rather than bring his lunchbox, he used the Rocktron. Perfectly adequate for the jam. I played my Morgan Monroe Creekside acoustic bass through my home unit Fender 800 with Bergantino N215. We got on the subject of small bass amps. His friend had recently purchased a Phil Jones Briefcase with battery and was raving about it. So I got a chance to hear it at a gig they played a U bass through and I was very impressed. The drawback was the $800-$900 exceed what I was willing to pay, plus the thing was way heavier than the MarkBass.

So, I did a little research here on T.B. and at some local dealers and got wind of the Double Four. All I had to go on was a picture of the front and the promise it ran off a auto-switching power supply. The dealers were not too responsive. Actually, one closed it doors after being around for 30-some years. I called Phil Jones direct and on a whim, placed an order for the double four. That was a few months ago.

When it arrived, I saw it was just the perfect weight and size. If it sounded half as good as the briefcase, the MarkBass was heading back to G.C. I opened the box and immediately was disappointed. A separate power supply?! I was like, really guys? Add another inch or two added to the cabinet and it would still be light as heck, small and most importantly, all self contained, having to only plug one cable into the rear or wherever. But no! A separate power supply, plus having to plug an additional power cable to the power supply instead of a direct wall connection. Most other manufacturers (such as my friend's Lunchbox amp) use a straight AC line in with built in power supply. Poor choice, in my opinion. This is not mentioned in their spec sheets. One would have to look closely at the pictures available now on their website to not think about having to plug an outboard power supply in. They show no picture of a separate supply nor mention this fact. Because of this oversight, I have to call them out on a bad approach to making a beautiful idea clunky, even though I missed that component when researching.

So, I'm thinking, ok, I have a 14.4v, 200-watt hour lithium ion battery from a broadcast camera I could use to power this amp with and use it portable. The battery could mount perfectly with Velcro on the side of the amp and run off a DC battery. Good DC regulators typically can handle overloads by a several volts quite easily. Being assumptive, PJ touts high quality components, so I would presume a good DC regulator to be in the chipset able to handle higher voltage than the rated voltage. I calculated at the power draw rate of the Double Four, my battery should power the amp for 2-3 hours easily. Mind you, this was an immediate calculation before my next step explained in the following paragraph.

Based on the size of the DC coax connector mounted on the chassis, I presumed this amps power requirements would have been around 12 volts DC on the cabinet input. I hadn't yet unpacked the power supply. That was my error because guess what? It's a 20-volt DC supply. Not 9 or 12, but 20-volts DC. It isn't fused and if it craps out, you can't just run down to any Radio Shack for a replacement, not to mention my hair-brained idea of powering it with my battery.

While I love the tonal quality, size and weight, I felt a little short-sold on the power requirements but mainly the stupid outboard power supply you have to connect to an AC cable. Phil Jones company does not make it clear in any of the brochures I have seen this is a requirement. He looks good holding just the box in a promo shot, right? What about a picture with the necessary outboard power supply held in you other hand? I called them and mentioned this to them. I gave them my name and number, they were very interested in my opinion and informed me someone from tech or service would contact me.

Irregardless, I returned the MarkBass Micro, kept the Double Four and hoping Phil Jones will put a little more practical thought into their next product, rather than think in terms of inches or centimeters to market their products as the smallest available. Next time, R&D with the help of end users, please.

It fits perfectly in a Promaster L-500 still camera bag with great padding I picked up for $25.00. I use the pouches for cables, Snark and oh, the separate power supply and removable AC cable. I grab my Steinberger XL and I'm set to go.

Everyone I have shown this amp to or has played through it are wow'd and have high praise for it. Every one of them has also remarked with a, "What's with the separate power supply (raised eyebrow look)?".

If you want a great little sounding amp with plenty of balls for general purposes, this is it. I would wait to purchase one however, until they improve it. Trust me, this separate power supply thing will drive you nuts. If they do, I most certainly will sell this one and purchase an integrated version - again, if they ever do it.

Still waiting on that call, folks.

 

[Jon Moody]

Add another inch or two added to the cabinet and it would still be light as heck, small and most importantly, all self contained, having to only plug one cable into the rear or wherever.

At that point, it would be directly competing with the PJB Bass Cub, the amp that's more powerful (not by much, but still), has two channels, an XLR out (with ground lift) and switchable limiter. The Double Four, at that point, would be considered redundant.

He looks good holding just the box in a promo shot, right? What about a picture with the necessary outboard power supply held in you other hand?

The picture you're mentioning is with the Double Four prototype, which also had two channels, whereas the production model has one. I'm more concerned with that than having to tote around the separate power supply. I consider that no more annoying than carrying a separate power cord for any combo.

Instead of getting them to redesign the amp with an integrated power supply (which as mentioned previously, would cannibalize their current line), I would like to see them offer the Double Four bag, like the one we've seen in the Japanese market. Given that Japan is roughly 70% of the PJB market, it's easy to see why they'd get it first.

If you want a great little sounding amp with plenty of balls for general purposes, this is it. I would wait to purchase one however, until they improve it. Trust me, this separate power supply thing will drive you nuts. If they do, I most certainly will sell this one and purchase an integrated version - again, if they ever do it.

I would seriously recommend checking out the Bass Cub, as it will probably fit your needs more than the Double Four will. It's 13lbs, comes in its own carrying case (with handy shoulder strap), and has an integrated power supply. It also has all of the extra features I mentioned above.

 

[Onemanbanned]

Thanks for your input. I'm not too computer savvy and also am on the road typing on my iPhone so I will make this brief.

The Cub may have been just fine. There was no way for me to get a hold of either the Cub or DF hen I made my decision to order.

I may have missed it, but how was anyone to know this was a prototype he was holding in that picture? No where in any of the pictures on the internet or dialogue there I had read before ordering was information requiring a separate power supply. All of the pictures on their website show just the amp and make no mention of a separate power supply.

Perhaps I should have been a bit more attentive but really, it's all about disclosure when selling a product, particularly when there is a high reputation and high price tag attached to it. I don't like feeling like I am polarized into a cool product then feeling like I'm being bamboozled when something sleek looking has an attachment which makes it clunky and bulbous isn't mentioned or shown as a necessary "accessory", even if it is included in the package.

Lastly, it appears these puppies are shipping with a bag now? Is this correct or is it someone is confused with the Cub. If so, I'm feeling a bit more short-changed because one wasn't included with mine. That being said, I still love the portability and tonal qualities which even if less powerful or "flexible" than the Cub, suits my needs, and then some.

 

[Jon Moody]

No where in any of the pictures on the internet or dialogue there I had read before ordering was information requiring a separate power supply. All of the pictures on their website show just the amp and make no mention of a separate power supply.

You're right, it wasn't on the website that it comes with a separate power supply. If we're being fair however, it doesn't mention on any of the other PJB amps that there's a separate power cord, either.

The PJB threads over on the EB side have addressed the power supply issue directly, as many of us (prior to getting one) had a question about that. Once someone said "It's a separate power supply, much like your laptop," the issue over there was solved.

For many of us that are used to PJB stuff, this is the same type of power supply that he's used before, in the Bass Buddy preamp. So to find out it's the same concept - at least for me - was nothing out of the ordinary.

Perhaps I should have been a bit more attentive but really, it's all about disclosure when selling a product, particularly when there is a high reputation and high price tag attached to it. I don't like feeling like I am polarized into a cool product then feeling like I'm being bamboozled when something sleek looking has an attachment which makes it clunky and bulbous isn't mentioned or shown as a necessary "accessory", even if it is included in the package.

You are the only person that's been this upset by the separate power supply (that I've heard), and while I can understand your position, to say you've been bamboozled because of it I think is a bit much.

Lastly, it appears these puppies are shipping with a bag now? Is this correct or is it someone is confused with the Cub. If so, I'm feeling a bit more short-changed because one wasn't included with mine.

If you're talking about flatcat who posted in this thread a bit prior, he bought one in Japan, where there IS a bag (because of the aforementioned larger market share). When I talked to Phil last month about this, he said there were no plans at that point to offer a bag over here. That could have changed, but that was the official word when last I checked.

If he does finally release a bag for the Double Four at some point, I certainly won't feel short-changed; maybe a bit bummed, sure. How many times do you buy something and then a month or so later, the newer version comes out? It would be the same concept.

 

[Onemanbanned]

In regards to being bamboozled, I was speaking in general terms, not specifically blasting PJ. I think many companies release products which do not cater to all end users needs or wishes. I also realize they can't.

This is what I hate about emails and boards like this on the internet; one always can be misunderstood and opinions taken out of context very easily. There is no dynamic conversation going on as when people verbally communicate. If I had experience with other PJ products, I would have had more insight about the use of remote power supplies. In my case, it simply was not what I wanted in an amplifier. I kept the amp compromising the inconvenience for the tonal qualities and size.

I'm not scorning the company, just verbalizing. I'm a new purchaser/user and have not had the opportunity nor discretionary funds to be able to experiment with these high-ticket toys. No dealers in my area were even aware of the DF at the time I was looking to purchase. As mentioned in my first post, I never received a reply from any of them and purchased based on the information I had at hand. That was all I had to go on. I do not like buying equipment and other products which are not tangable. In this case, I had no other way to make a decision without purchasing the unit.

As far as other threads regarding this theme, thanks for the input. It is a miracle I found this one. I actually did most of my search from the google because TB does not have a very user friendly thread search.

 

[Ric Vice]

This is what I hate about emails and boards like this on the internet; one always can be misunderstood and opinions taken out of context very easily. There is no dynamic conversation going on as when people verbally communicate. If I had experience with other PJ products, I would have had more insight about the use of remote power supplies. In my case, it simply was not what I wanted in an amplifier. I kept the amp compromising the inconvenience for the tonal qualities and size.

One Man Banned,
I've certainly purchased amps as a compromise, because nothing existed that had all the specific features I wanted.
Like you I'm not a fan of "wall warts", not because they don't work, they do, but down the road, many years into the future when they fail, you have to play the find a "wart game". This is especially, difficult when the manufacture of the amp, discontinues that particular model. I'm not saying that's going to be the case with PJB, but I can happen.

I'm not scorning the company, just verbalizing. I'm a new purchaser/user and have not had the opportunity nor discretionary funds to be able to experiment with these high-ticket toys. No dealers in my area were even aware of the DF at the time I was looking to purchase.

There hasn't been the commitment to carrying the entire catalog of a particular line for quite some time now. PJB has address this by offering their product direct, but that's not the same experience as going to a reputable music store and being able to look at all it's features, before you buy it. Unfortunately, this is a sign of the times. When Ampeg released the PF series it was months before anyone in St. Louis had one in the store.

As mentioned in my first post, I never received a reply from any of them and purchased based on the information I had at hand. That was all I had to go on. I do not like buying equipment and other products which are not tangable. In this case, I had no other way to make a decision without purchasing the unit.

This seems to be the case with most newly minted amplifiers. Since brick and mortar dealers are on the decline, specialty amps from many boutique companies don't always have a users manual on line, before their released, so you can't tell what the feature set of a particular amp is.

As far as other threads regarding this theme, thanks for the input. It is a miracle I found this one. I actually did most of my search from the google because TB does not have a very user friendly thread search.

True, while the information on the site has expanded and grown exponentially, the search functions aren't as user friendly as they could be. My evocation was as Library Media Specialist, and I can relate to your frustration. Since I don't know the inner workings
of this database, my guess is that their are so many previous threads of substantial length, with new ones being added all the time, that it's so massive as to be unmanageable. On the other hand, I would have never found the Headway EDB-1, Ehrlund Pickup, or the Audiokinesis TC 112 it
Talkbass wasn't available.

Ric

 

[Onemanbanned]

I'm sticking with this little sucker. I just wish I could make it more adaptive to my needs.

Decided to use it for a little roadhouse gig with 2 other acoustics Wednesay. Confident I will have enough power that I'm not bringing a backup, higher-wattage amp. Getting used to not toting a bowling ball around and it feels great!

Thanks for everyone's input and putting up with my little hissy fits! I appreciate the dedication to help others. I have posted on TB before indicating the amount of truly great members who take the time to help others. I think the thread was pulled by the administrators because it was in the classified section. No matter, stellar people here!

 

[MuthaFunk]

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f15/nad-phil-jones-double-four-review-pics-1005244/#post14693486

Internal build pics as well.

 

[MuthaFunk]

...
So, I'm thinking, ok, I have a 14.4v, 200-watt hour lithium ion battery from a broadcast camera I could use to power this amp with and use it portable. The battery could mount perfectly with Velcro on the side of the amp and run off a DC battery. Good DC regulators typically can handle overloads by a several volts quite easily. Being assumptive, PJ touts high quality components, so I would presume a good DC regulator to be in the chipset able to handle higher voltage than the rated voltage. I calculated at the power draw rate of the Double Four, my battery should power the amp for 2-3 hours easily. Mind you, this was an immediate calculation before my next step explained in the following paragraph.

Based on the size of the DC coax connector mounted on the chassis, I presumed this amps power requirements would have been around 12 volts DC on the cabinet input. I hadn't yet unpacked the power supply. That was my error because guess what? It's a 20-volt DC supply. Not 9 or 12, but 20-volts DC...

I bought the Double Four with wireless campfire jamming in mind. I plan on making my own 12VDC to 20VDC supply out of one of these:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300896310668

I'll plan to wire it up with a standard 12V accessory plug on one end and the Double Four male jack on the other, mounted in a plastic housing and use my car booster pack.

 

[Onemanbanned]

Thanks Mutha for the detail on your impressions of this amp as well as the link for the up converter.

It reminded me I have an old 12v to 19.5v converter for an old Mac Mini which people used to install in their cars to watch movies and listen to music libraries with a touchscreen, as well as surf the net in the car with a USB cell card. Of course, that was before smartphones and such. It's in an box somewhere. Can't recall the manufacturer. Carnetix or something like that. I'm gonna cannabalize it and if it pumps out enough current, will test it out.

The battery I have is an Anton Bauer-style "Goldmount" connector which snaps onto the back of a broadcast battery. I have a panel mount receptacle for the battery. If it works, I should have enough space to mount it and the up-converter onto the DF cabinet and go portable. It would add about 4 lbs but it would really answer my thought to operate the DF on battery power. Hate to rube it by putting holes in the unit and probably cak the warranty, but I'm keeping this amp and I want portability as an option.

It will take a while. When I finally get to it, I will post the results.

 

[DoubleMIDI]

The MacMini adapter won't deliver the current you may need. I'm rather sure you will blow this up very soon.