Pickup height affect on tone?

[jrcorp]

I've searched this topic and found the same link to the Fender support page and little else, so I apologize if I missed something. I am in the process of upgrading an Ibanez SR300DX, replacing hardware now but planning on the electronics and pickups too. I don't mind the stock pickups and will use them until I feel like a change, but I've been thinking of going to the SD Vintage P and J pickups. I would like some versatility, but I'm mostly into a jazzy or old-school R&B kind of tone. I have had great experience with SD guitar pickups, and being unfamiliar with bass pickup brands, models, tones etc. I figure I would go with them again.

Coming from the guitar, I don't understand entirely how bass tone works or depends on the pickups. I know that raising the height increases volume and gets a darker sound, while lowering does the opposite. From what I've seen, the priority in bass is even string volume, but beyond that I don't get it. I used to raise my guitar pickups as high as possible but when I lowered them I loved the difference. A lot of bassists seem to just raise the pickups about as high as possible. It's confusing to me - I keep looking into Gary Willis' setup pages and videos and while he makes a lot of sense I wonder if that kind of setup would work for me, if I could even get my bass set up that way.

Can I get a good range of tones regardless of pickup height? Could a good preamp help everything? Is maxed out height okay because bass is naturally about the low end? Please school me.

 

[lidesnowi]

I've searched this topic and found the same link to the Fender support page and little else, so I apologize if I missed something. I am in the process of upgrading an Ibanez SR300DX, replacing hardware now but planning on the electronics and pickups too. I don't mind the stock pickups and will use them until I feel like a change, but I've been thinking of going to the SD Vintage P and J pickups. I would like some versatility, but I'm mostly into a jazzy or old-school R&B kind of tone. I have had great experience with SD guitar pickups, and being unfamiliar with bass pickup brands, models, tones etc. I figure I would go with them again.

Coming from the guitar, I don't understand entirely how bass tone works or depends on the pickups. I know that raising the height increases volume and gets a darker sound, while lowering does the opposite. From what I've seen, the priority in bass is even string volume, but beyond that I don't get it. I used to raise my guitar pickups as high as possible but when I lowered them I loved the difference. A lot of bassists seem to just raise the pickups about as high as possible. It's confusing to me - I keep looking into Gary Willis' setup pages and videos and while he makes a lot of sense I wonder if that kind of setup would work for me, if I could even get my bass set up that way.

Can I get a good range of tones regardless of pickup height? Could a good preamp help everything? Is maxed out height okay because bass is naturally about the low end? Please school me.

The farther away from the pickup is from the string, the weaker bass and treble providing a more bland midrange and lower output, 2 to 3 millimeters is good to start with the on the bridge pickup and 5 to 8 millimeters on the neck pickup!
Experiment and try different heights, just go wild with it!

Gary Willis knows his ****!

 

[Modern Growl]

Not to come off as too brash but why dont you just experiment and listen for yourself?

In general terms, the further away the pickups are, the less output and more mellow the tone. The closer, more output and more "bite".

This is a topic where you can just get your own answer and experiemnt iwth by yourself.

 

[jrcorp]

It's weird to me coming from guitar, I guess. The answer will be just tweaking until I find what I like. The idea of using the pickup as a thumbrest is different to me too, that makes things more complicated in a way. I was thinking about trying to make a ramp later on, so the high pickups go with that.

Would having pickups raised up close work against the sound of lower-output "vintage" type pickups?

I appreciate the responses, that suggestion wasn't brash at all.

 

[JimmyM]

If you have pickups too close, they'll cause the magnetic field to go all ka-flooey and they can sound like they have a chorus on them, plus the strings will bang into them more often. There is definitely a sweet zone for pickup height. I find the bass setup guide at Invalid Link Removed a good starting place. They set theirs 7/64" on the bass side and 5/64" on the bridge side in basses with vintage style pickups, I believe. You can play around with that, but it's a good starting point.

 

[Stealth]

Invalid Link Removed (a pickup guru and owner of MAMA pickups) has a decent article on the effects of string height. Google Translate does an okay job translating it, but you'll have to manually type in the labels from the middle image.

 

[eots]

One of the effects of raising the pups too close is the magnetic pull from the poles will 'tug' on the strings and they stop vibrating sooner( sustain). More of an issue with the neck pup vs the bridge pup due to how much movement the strings have over those areas. Find a happy balance depending on how hard you pluck/pick/ or pop your strings so the strings don't hit the pickups (unless that's your thing) and equal volume between the pups. My experience is to have the bridge pup gap closer than the neck pup. Less string deflection at the bridge suggests moving it closer to maintain a balance of volume but also less chance of strings hitting pup.

 

[cnltb]

I've searched this topic and found the same link to the Fender support page and little else, so I apologize if I missed something. I am in the process of upgrading an Ibanez SR300DX, replacing hardware now but planning on the electronics and pickups too. I don't mind the stock pickups and will use them until I feel like a change, but I've been thinking of going to the SD Vintage P and J pickups. I would like some versatility, but I'm mostly into a jazzy or old-school R&B kind of tone. I have had great experience with SD guitar pickups, and being unfamiliar with bass pickup brands, models, tones etc. I figure I would go with them again.

Coming from the guitar, I don't understand entirely how bass tone works or depends on the pickups. I know that raising the height increases volume and gets a darker sound, while lowering does the opposite. From what I've seen, the priority in bass is even string volume, but beyond that I don't get it. I used to raise my guitar pickups as high as possible but when I lowered them I loved the difference. A lot of bassists seem to just raise the pickups about as high as possible. It's confusing to me - I keep looking into Gary Willis' setup pages and videos and while he makes a lot of sense I wonder if that kind of setup would work for me, if I could even get my bass set up that way.

Can I get a good range of tones regardless of pickup height? Could a good preamp help everything? Is maxed out height okay because bass is naturally about the low end? Please school me.

It very much depends on the pickup- how far it wants to be away from the strings in order to sound best.
There certainly is a difference in tone when changing that distance.

 

[ga_edwards]

Most bass manufactures will have a factory setup guide (I know at least Fender, Warwick and Yamaha do) detailing the optimum pickup height settings. Perhaps pickup manufacturers have the same info in their installation guides?

 

[jrcorp]

Thanks for the responses, again.

The SD manuals say to adjust the pickups so they're about 1/8" away from the string when it's fretted at the last fret, which is similar to the Fender measurements. The Ibanez manuals just give an explanation of the effects of high or low pickups, and don't give measurements but encourage to adjust to taste.

I went with the 2 nickel for high (pitch) strings, 1 nickel for low method that Bill Lawrence explains on his website, but I'm not sure that's appropriate for bass. I know to set the bridge first, then adjust the neck to match the volume as it will need to be lower. So I have a feeling in Fender's case it would be more like 5/64" for neck, 7/64" for bridge.

Invalid Link Removed (a pickup guru and owner of MAMA pickups) has a decent article on the effects of string height. Google Translate does an okay job translating it, but you'll have to manually type in the labels from the middle image.

That site page looks like it has a wealth of info, so when I get the time to translate I'll dive in. Thanks!

I feel like I'm just hitting a mental snag going from guitar tech to bass tech, like there's a real difference somewhere. Why are some bass pickups radiused and others not - are the radiused ones balanced out across the strings by default, or do they need adjustment? I've been trying to imagine what the insides of a pickup like the curved Bart on the GWB basses look like, for example. Probably thinking way too much, but I like understanding how things work.

 

[Frankjohnson]

If you have pickups too close, they'll cause the magnetic field to go all ka-flooey and they can sound like they have a chorus on them, plus the strings will bang into them more often. There is definitely a sweet zone for pickup height. I find the bass setup guide at Invalid Link Removed a good starting place. They set theirs 7/64" on the bass side and 5/64" on the bridge side in basses with vintage style pickups, I believe. You can play around with that, but it's a good starting point.

I agree all out on this....
AND
relief in my opinion plays a part in the voice also.

 

[jrcorp]

I agree all out on this....
AND
relief in my opinion plays a part in the voice also.

Once I get my bass put back together, I'll be doing my best at a good setup. I've done them before, but I keep learning. I'm pretty confident that the truss rod could use at least a little tightening, and I'm hoping that will help the action and playability.

 

[ga_edwards]

I went with the 2 nickel for high (pitch) strings, 1 nickel for low method that Bill Lawrence explains on his website, but I'm not sure that's appropriate for bass.

Hmmm, personally I would do that the other way round, give more clearance to the low side as the thicker string as a wider degree of movement when plucked. it should even out string to string volume too.

Also, if you're setting up a split P, you can roughly radius the 2 pickups to match the fretboard. Not forgetting to radius the bridge too, of course. This will also help balance string to string volume.

 

[jrcorp]

Hmmm, personally I would do that the other way round, give more clearance to the low side as the thicker string as a wider degree of movement when plucked. it should even out string to string volume too.

Also, if you're setting up a split P, you can roughly radius the 2 pickups to match the fretboard. Not forgetting to radius the bridge too, of course. This will also help balance string to string volume.

Yeah I gaffed that, I meant the opposite. I've messed up the last few posts I've made, I need to proofread before I submit.

I noticed people radius P style pickups and that there are certain models (SD Antiquity) that have raised poles beneath the A string to compensate. Should I try to radius the P and yet keep a sort of angle across the strings?

The bridge pickup being a covered (poles not exposed) Jazz, I can't radius that as well. Is the radius important enough that I should look to a brand like DiMarzio instead of SD when I shop so that I have adjustable pole pieces? I don't have experience with DiMarzio but I'm afraid the pickups would be too hot or aggressive in tone for me.

 

[4Mal]

The Fender guide is a good place to start. Like you, I am generally after 'old school' r&b tones. The typical Motown, Memphis and for a more modern example, Los Lobos thing. I tend to like my pickups lower rather then higher. On passive fretted, Fender style electric basses I tend towards flatwounds with D'Addario Chromes being top of the heap for pop, blues, rock for me. Fretless I refer Thomastic jazz flats or LaBella Tape wounds.

Active basses for me are Music Man these days. Less call for them in my musical scene but I like 'em a lot anyway.

In the interest of remaining in the old school camp, I would reccommend staying away from anything overwound more then 3 to 5% when and if you replace your pickups. If you want to stay with SD, the SPB-1, SJB-1 are by far the best bass pickups they make IMO. Personally I use Pete Biltoft at Vintage Vibe as I can get fully custom for the off the shelf price. I like Alnico 3 mags for their softer attack and a very slight overwind for a smidge extra beef. Pete can do that easily...

Experimentation... Yep. Tone is highly subjective, personal and evolutionary... More a journey than destination.

 

[jrcorp]

The Fender guide is a good place to start. Like you, I am generally after 'old school' r&b tones. The typical Motown, Memphis and for a more modern example, Los Lobos thing. I tend to like my pickups lower rather then higher. On passive fretted, Fender style electric basses I tend towards flatwounds with D'Addario Chromes being top of the heap for pop, blues, rock for me. Fretless I refer Thomastic jazz flats or LaBella Tape wounds.

Active basses for me are Music Man these days. Less call for them in my musical scene but I like 'em a lot anyway.

In the interest of remaining in the old school camp, I would reccommend staying away from anything overwound more then 3 to 5% when and if you replace your pickups. If you want to stay with SD, the SPB-1, SJB-1 are by far the best bass pickups they make IMO. Personally I use Pete Biltoft at Vintage Vibe as I can get fully custom for the off the shelf price. I like Alnico 3 mags for their softer attack and a very slight overwind for a smidge extra beef. Pete can do that easily...

Experimentation... Yep. Tone is highly subjective, personal and evolutionary... More a journey than destination.

Awesome post, good to get encouragement on the "old" sound. It's weird, most of what I want to play is jazz but I would rather try for that kind of tone you've mentioned than what I see as a modern jazz/fusion kind of tone that seems popular. It would be great if I could get nearer to upright tone but still have the ability to dial in other sounds; I've read tapewounds get the upright sound but I doubt they would be for me. Though I think your statement about the "vintage" SD pickups is somewhat biased, I'm glad to see a positive review.

 

[jrcorp]

I adjusted the pickups according to Fender's guide and ended up putting them I believe a little further away. I'm trying to keep my playing quiet, and I notice that when I pluck with my fingers over the P pickup, I'm getting a weird harmonic overtone, almost like I'm playing an artificial or pinch harmonic. Does this mean the pickups are too high?

 

[darkstorm]

I adjust mine by ear. For each pup solo then give little tweak for best sound both pups on but tilted a little bit toward the bridge. On my bass the pups are little less then 1/8 inch and little more then 1/16 above the string on low E side. On the G string side the neck pup is slightly closer to the string then is the bridge pup. Pup adjustment can improve sound a lot. If you have individually adjustable pole peices the affect of adjusting these overall pup height is increased a little more.

 

[xhawk5]

I adjusted the pickups according to Fender's guide and ended up putting them I believe a little further away. I'm trying to keep my playing quiet, and I notice that when I pluck with my fingers over the P pickup, I'm getting a weird harmonic overtone, almost like I'm playing an artificial or pinch harmonic. Does this mean the pickups are too high?

From my experience, yes. The P pup is slightly high. I use a screwdriver with marks on the handle so I know if I did a 1/2 turn, 1/4 turn and so on. I then listen as I adjust.

I always start off setting my neck bow, action and intonation just right with 1/8" pickup height (last fret pressed) as directed by Fender specs.
Then I'll adjust according to tonal taste. As usual, this all depends on active or passive pups, they act differently.
I'm quite anal with my set-ups and have been known th changs neck bow, action and pup height several times before I hear that it's right.
GL, hope I've helped.

 

[Ian Lewis]

Awesome post, good to get encouragement on the "old" sound. It's weird, most of what I want to play is jazz but I would rather try for that kind of tone you've mentioned than what I see as a modern jazz/fusion kind of tone that seems popular. It would be great if I could get nearer to upright tone but still have the ability to dial in other sounds; I've read tapewounds get the upright sound but I doubt they would be for me. Though I think your statement about the "vintage" SD pickups is somewhat biased, I'm glad to see a positive review.

To get an upright bass sound I believe you need to copy it's fast decay. Early Fender basses used to come from the factory with sponge under the bridge cover for this reason. Palm muting gives the same effect. Flat-wounds will help too. But if you want that lovely growl, you'll have to go fret-less.