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Double Bass Pizz and Arco, Corelli and Evah

#21
listen to what this guy says. he knows what he's talking about. i was there when he bought that bass.

i happen to have alot of experience with evah weichs and corelli's i have had them both on and off 4 different basses. id say that they can both do what you want, but it kind of depends on the bass. lloyd didnt like the evah's on his new standard, but i love them on mine. i do however have another bass where the evahs dont sound so hot. not terrible, but not the same as on the new standard. when you're as good as lloyd you're looking for subtle differences that can make all the difference in the world to you. i also have used the corelli's on a few basses. for me, they have been more consistant in terms of how they sound on each different bass whereas the evah seem to be more affected by the bass. that said, i love them both for arco and pizz. if you want to hear the corelli's pizz, click the link in my profile. the video is corelli 370 F, and the audio files, except the blues are 370 M on a different bass. the blues is also corelli 370 F. funny thing though, both those basses now have evah's on them! i think ill be putting the corelli's back on the bass in the video and leaving the evah's on the other.

edit: when i say evah, im referring to the weich. they are easy to bow and easy on the left hand too. i have no experience with the reg gauge

lloydjgoldstein said:
I am a student of Rabbath. I love his technique and ease of playing with the bow, but my instrument is a larger, darker sounding instrument. During the years that I worked on changing my technique I used the Correlli 370 mediums. Even with Rabbath's approach to bowing and a relatively light and well balanced bow (not too heavy at the tip), the 370M tend to bottom out in orchestral playing, especially on the low strings. My solution at the time, while playing in the orchestra, was to use Correlli Fortes, not TX, but the 370 Forte version on the two low strings and this allowed me to dig a little deeper.

Since that time I have become a solo player almost exclusively. I work as a Certified Music Practitioner at a cancer center playing solo double bass for patients, families and visitors almost 20 hours a week, every week, for the past 5 years. My main goal to is make a sound with the bow that is easy to listen to, beautiful, smooth, clear and ringing, yet warm and complex. The closest I have come with my 200 year old Tyrolian instrument are the Correlli Tungsten 370 Fortes. I use them on all four strings. There is enough tension to support my off the string playing and more aggressive moments in larger rooms, enough clarity and vibrancy to sustain the bowed melodies and arrangements that I create for myself to play alone, up close and personal.

I recently puchased a new double bass, a 7/8 size model from New Standard Basses and the Correllis seem a bit too bright for this newer instrument, and maybe even too ringy and strident. I would like to find a string that is almost as lively with a good sustained tone, but warmer and sweeter for this instrument. I have tried the Evah Pirazzi Weich, but it did not sing for me in the mid and upper registers where I spend most of my time. Otherwise a very nice sound. I also tried the Zyex strings and had similar results. The Zyex had a nice pizz sound, but again, did not sing for me where I needed it most.

If your bass tends toward a darker, rich sound, and you like Rabbath's sound concept, try the Correlli 370 Fortes. Give them a few days before you make up your mind. I have several used sets that I have not discarded. They are less than a year old. I would be happy to send you a set if you like.

As for the perfect solution for my new bass, I wish I knew! Whatever it is has to be relatively low to medium tension, flexible, beautiful and with a sustained, clear and singing tone in the solo range. Any ideas are welcome!
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#22
Birkerts said:
Thanks again for the input! I think for now I'm going to try the Evah weichs, but Corellis will surely come up in future experimentation.

lloydjgoldstein, its great to hear your thoughts! When I play arco it's actually more frequently in a solo context than orchestral. At some point I would love to try Corellis, I will certainly get in touch with you when I'm at a point when I have time to do some experimenting, and a little bit of money (as a student its... hard to come by). I think what you've devoted yourself to is really touching - its one thing to have a gift, and another to do something with it. I hope I have that opportunity! This is totally unrelated, but on the subject of Rabbath: do you use the Laborie endpin? I'm contemplating installing one on my bass. I'm a bassist who likes to sit but in most circumstances can't bring a stool due to space/set up time/travelling. I prefer to sit because of the stability - it lets me focus more on my playing, and frees up my left hand more. I'd love to hear about experiences with the endpin!
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Hi! I wrote a pretty extensive post on the endpin and playing position a while back. I have only maybe a dozen posts here on TalkBass so if you search my name you should find the endpin post easily enough. Let me know how it goes! If you don't find it I will locate it and try to send it to you or write a new one! Thanks.
 
#23
shwashwa said:
listen to what this guy says. he knows what he's talking about. i was there when he bought that bass.

i happen to have alot of experience with evah weichs and corelli's i have had them both on and off 4 different basses. id say that they can both do what you want, but it kind of depends on the bass. lloyd didnt like the evah's on his new standard, but i love them on mine. i do however have another bass where the evahs dont sound so hot. not terrible, but not the same as on the new standard. when you're as good as lloyd you're looking for subtle differences that can make all the difference in the world to you. i also have used the corelli's on a few basses. for me, they have been more consistant in terms of how they sound on each different bass whereas the evah seem to be more affected by the bass. that said, i love them both for arco and pizz. if you want to hear the corelli's pizz, click the link in my profile. the video is corelli 370 F, and the audio files, except the blues are 370 M on a different bass. the blues is also corelli 370 F. funny thing though, both those basses now have evah's on them! i think ill be putting the corelli's back on the bass in the video and leaving the evah's on the other.

edit: when i say evah, im referring to the weich. they are easy to bow and easy on the left hand too. i have no experience with the reg gauge
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Hey Brother,

Nice to hear from you. I hear you are enjoying your NSB. I still wonder whether I should have bought that model, but we shall see...thanks for the nice vote of confidence. Hope well meet again sometime. It was nice meeting you at the shop. Best!
 
#24
likewise!

a friend of mine bought the model that i have. mine is number one, his is number 2. his is made from poplar whereas mine is maple. his is definately darker than mine. not sure which i like better, his or mine. they're both great, but that poplar definately does something to the sound.

lloydjgoldstein said:
Hey Brother,

Nice to hear from you. I hear you are enjoying your NSB. I still wonder whether I should have bought that model, but we shall see...thanks for the nice vote of confidence. Hope well meet again sometime. It was nice meeting you at the shop. Best!
Click to expand...
 
#25
I am currently using Corelli 370 tungstens on my bass. I find that they are a really great "utility" string - not terrible at anything, but maybe not completely ideal for any one thing either. I do like the fast bow response, but as Lloyd pointed out they do tend to bottom out quite easily if you put much weight into the string or if you're doing an orchestral spiccato stroke. I think when they are relatively new (less then 3 or 4 months) they do give a pretty good semblance of a growly pizz sound - not as aggressive as the obligatos you are used to perhaps but not bad either. I think the bowed sound is really warm and full too - very well balanced across the bass. I have a few recordings on youtube using Corellis - the most recent one will give you a good idea of their arco sound

Chasin' the bird - YouTube

I don't have a ton of experience with the Evahs but some of my students have used them in the past. I personally find them a bit too stiff under the hands to be really comfortable. This can vary widely from bass to bass however so maybe on your instrument they'll work out.
Hope this helps
Craig
 
#26
Thanks, that is helpful! I will definitely try Corellis (maybe the forte guage?) but for auditions I'm going to try the Evahs so my sound doesn't change TOO much in the next couple months. Your playing is great! You make that head seem easy... can you tell me about your tailpiece? I haven't seen anything like it. Are you using corellis on your recording of the six studies on Youtube?
And did you find the Corellis to be too weak for jazz?
 
#27
Thanks Birkets
The bass is made by James Ham in Vancouver, British Columbia. The tailpiece is his own design made out of pernambuco. The original aspect to it is it has moveable tuners under each string to adjust the "after length", or distance of the string between the tailpiece and the bridge. This gives another variable to play with in terms of opening up the resonance of the bass.
The strings on the 6 studies video is my solo string set - flexocore solo. I use those strings for all of my solo recitals and recordings, but the Corellis are on my bass until a month or two before a solo recital or recording since I think they are a wonderful all around string.
I personally don't feel the Corellis are too weak for jazz but I don't tend to pull as hard as some do. I rely on the pickup/amp for projection in most cases.
 
#28
stefaniw80401 said:
Another thought I have to share. In the winter time, my bass seems to harden up and slow down. I noticed over the years, that in a warmer room, that my bass moves great. Here in my home studio, where my winter temperature is around 65 degrees, it's not so good. But bump the heater up to 72 degrees, and in a couple of hours I can practice my bass with satisfaction.

I know that humudity is talked about alot as a primary factor, but for me, I've noticed that temperature is a bigger factor. So much so, that for my recitals, I ask the venues to set the temperature to between 72-74 degrees (in the winter time).

What does that mean physically? Well, I think it means that the bass expands a little when it's warmer, and contracts when it's cooler. I can never remember how this affects sound post tightness. I think it gets looser when the wood expands, and tighter when the wood cools. Somebody know any different please chime in. The wood mostly moves parallel to its grain, and less in it's thickness. So as the ribs expand, the distance between the plates gets further apart and the sound post gets looser -- no?
Click to expand...

Humidity changes with temperature and how much is being added by a humidifier to the hot air from a furnace. I think warm air can hold more moisture than cool. Your bass contracts when the heat comes on in winter and the air and wood is dryer, and the post will then be tighter.
 
#30
Eric Hochberg said:
Humidity changes with temperature and how much is being added by a humidifier to the hot air from a furnace. I think warm air can hold more moisture than cool. Your bass contracts when the heat comes on in winter and the air and wood is dryer, and the post will then be tighter.
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Actually, cold air (being denser) can hold more moisture -- until when the tempurature drops to the dewpoint it condenses.

Nevertheless, my observation about a warmer room being better for my bass, I think is still valid. Because I think that wood comes to a temperature equilibrium much faster than a humidity equilibrium -- doesn't it -- it's gotta.
 
#31
stefaniw80401 said:
Actually, cold air (being denser) can hold more moisture -- until when the tempurature drops to the dewpoint it condenses.
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From Wikipedia

A useful rule of thumb is that the maximum absolute humidity doubles for every 20 °F or 10 °C increase in temperature. Thus, the relative humidity will drop by a factor of 2 for each 20 °F or 10 °C increase in temperature, assuming conservation of absolute moisture. For example, in the range of normal temperatures, air at 70 °F or 20 °C and 50% relative humidity will become saturated if cooled to 50°F or 10 °C, its dewpoint and 40 °F or 5 °C air at 80% relative humidity warmed to 70 °F or 20 °C will have a relative humidity of only 29% and feel dry. By comparison, a relative humidity between 40% and 60% is considered healthy and comfortable in comfort controlled environments (ASHRAE Standard 55 - see thermal comfort).


This seems to me to mean that warmer air can hold more humidity than cold.
 
#32
Eric Hochberg said:
This seems to me to mean that warmer air can hold more humidity than cold.
Click to expand...

OK, thanks for the clarification. But what about my original assertion that our basses (i.e. wood) respond more readily to changes in temperature than changes in humidity?

I never understood how those little dampit's some players stuff into their f-holes make any difference at all. They're like firing a spitball at a battleship, and I don't bother with them.

I keep my (Denver, Colorado) music room around 42% RH with a room humidifier, and monitored by a Robert White precision hygrometer.

That being my "constant", when I turn up the heat to around 72F, my bass feels great. Down around 65F, then it feels stiff and unresponsive.

The original poster (Bikerts with Obligato strings in Boston, MA) complains about his bass feeling stiff, and is barking after a new set of strings that are looser and lower in tension than Obligato (ehh?)

My responses have attempted to redirect his awareness towards his room temperature, and keeping the (already low in tension) Obligato strings.
 
#33
stefaniw80401 said:
OK, thanks for the clarification. But what about my original assertion that our basses (i.e. wood) respond more readily to changes in temperature than changes in humidity?

I never understood how those little dampit's some players stuff into their f-holes make any difference at all. They're like firing a spitball at a battleship, and I don't bother with them.

I keep my (Denver, Colorado) music room around 42% RH with a room humidifier, and monitored by a Robert White precision hygrometer.

That being my "constant", when I turn up the heat to around 72F, my bass feels great. Down around 65F, then it feels stiff and unresponsive.

The original poster (Bikerts with Obligato strings in Boston, MA) complains about his bass feeling stiff, and is barking after a new set of strings that are looser and lower in tension than Obligato (ehh?)

My responses have attempted to redirect his awareness towards his room temperature, and keeping the (already low in tension) Obligato strings.
Click to expand...

I don't know if your assertion is right or not.
I think dampits only have an affect when the bass is in it's bag to hold the evaporation in.
When you turn up the heat from 65º to 72º, you need more humidity in the air to keep it at 42% relative. Maybe your bass likes it wetter or dryer... try keeping the humidity at 35-38% at a lower temp and see what happens. That's a safe range for my basses. Relative humidity and temperature are linked.

I should add that I'm a bit out of my element here as I'm no scientist/meteorologist, so any corrections are welcome.
 
#34
I agree with Eric. The dampits only work if you store your bass in the bag between playing. That way you're only humidifying a few cubic feet of space instead of the whole room - definitely impossible with a little sponge!
It's interesting following the discussion of temperature/humidity. In my personal experience it's difficult to really separate the two, since in general when the weather gets colder in the winter the air dries out. However I think most basses sound much better when it's humid. Two things going on here - something about the instrument seems to "open up" with increased humidity. Sound also travels faster in humid weather (sound moves faster through water than air) and I've heard some people postulate that EVERYTHING sounds better in humid weather. We're getting into audiophile territory here, but it's worth thinking about!
The drawback to me with playing in very humid weather is that the instrument gets sticky - especially the fingerboard. This can be a huge problem for shifting.
 
#36
Eric Hochberg said:
I've also felt and heard others say they like the sound of their bass better when it's dryer out. Makes sense to me to think wetter wood is less resonant than dryer. But that is just my uneducated guess... It may also depend on what sound you prefer!
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Yes, but how fast does the bass respond to RH change? In music school, the concert hall was always too cold for me, but the practice studios were warmer, and yes were humidified.

I'd go to a practice studio, take out my bass, go to the bathroom to wash my hands, and in about 20 minutes, my bass was warmed up and moving nicely.

I'm not convinced that wood responds as fast to RH as it does to temperature. That's what I'm trying to get at here, and that's the advice I have for bickerts in Boston now that it is cold outside.

When I moved to CO from NC, it took about 4 weeks (i.e. a long time) for the seams in my bass to pop open. And that was definitely as a result of a change in RH, not temperature.
 

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