Playing Bass through PA with DI?

[B1GAL95]

I play an active bass guitar and when practicing at home I play through the fender rumble 15. This is a great sounding amp and perfect for the home.
Anyway during band practice or playing live I play through the PA system. I'm using the chord active di box but I still am not getting a sound anywhere near as good as my fender rumble. I want to know if I can improve/overcome this by using an effects pedal, or some sort of pre amp? Would I daisy chain the pedal with the di box or loop it through the inserts? I honestly have no clue?
Also I would like to get away with using two monitors as we currently only gig in small venues. Where would be best to position the two monitors so that the 4 of us can hear them (drums, bass, guitar and singer).

 

[jimfist]

Are you NOT using any dedicated bass amp for your stage sound? If so, then I'd recommend the Zoom MS60B stomp pedal. It is designed with direct "full range" amplification in mind since it has (among many other things) models of amps, preamps, and speaker cabinets built into it. For a $99 pedal, it is a very cool piece of gear. Invalid Link Removed

If you are using a stage amp, then I'd go with a tech21 SansAmp bass driver so you can send an "amp emulated" output to the PA (you can set it to sound like an Ampeg SVT) while sending an uneffected tap to your bass amp. [Invalid or Expired Link Removed] A cheaper but good alternative would be the MXR M-80...essentially the same functions: [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

As for your monitor question, I guess I would want to know what type of music you perform and how loud it is on stage. with only 2 monitors, my first inclination would be that you should put them on speaker stands and "wash" the entire stage with them from the front, kind of like you'd do with a PA system for the audience, but turned the other way. Very awkward though, with 2 sets of speakers on stands, and takes up a lot of space. Otherwise, traditionally positioned, someone in your band is going to lose out hearing the monitors placed on the floor if only using 2 of them. There just isn't enough coverage angle. Maybe do-able with 3 wedges (2 out front, 1 in back for drummer). You have to realize that monitor speakers are designed to be "focused" and assumed to be placed in locations that will minimize vocal mic feedback.

first things first: what is the gear your using for PA and monitors?

 

[iriegnome]

Need way more info. If you are thinking that a Rumble 15 is the awesome sound you want, why are you not using it on stage?? Myself, I use 850w on stage for my rig. 6 piece band with 2 drummers and 3 guitards. This last weekend I ran direct cause I was filling in for an acoustic duo.. It sucked.. I was playing through a 25,000w PA and had 6 different monitor mixes on stage. Still had trouble with tone (NONE) and getting the feel of my bass through the monitors. I know there are people in here that play this way, but I hated it.. (I used a Radial DI by the way)

 

[ctbass]

Personally I think so much of your tone comes from you and the bass. I play in several different situations.

I use a GB Shuttle 6.0 into to two Epifani 1x12 with a variety of effect Pedals.

I use this setup with no PA support and wedges. I use this setup with PA and and Aviom IEM setup.

I also use the pedal board into a DI with an Aviom IEM setup with NO amp.

My tone is pretty consistent and great sounding 99% of the time. The conclusion I have come to......My Sadowsky Metro MV 5.

 

[jimfist]

Need way more info. If you are thinking that a Rumble 15 is the awesome sound you want, why are you not using it on stage?? Myself, I use 850w on stage for my rig. 6 piece band with 2 drummers and 3 guitards. This last weekend I ran direct cause I was filling in for an acoustic duo.. It sucked.. I was playing through a 25,000w PA and had 6 different monitor mixes on stage. Still had trouble with tone (NONE) and getting the feel of my bass through the monitors. I know there are people in here that play this way, but I hated it.. (I used a Radial DI by the way)

Playing direct through a PA cabinet or stage wedge can be a bit unsettling if you haven't done much of it before. Some pre-processing is usually needed. With tone controls wide open and roundwound strings, you'll be in LEVEL 42 heaven, but short of that sound, it is a totally different animal going direct to PA than using a traditional bass amp. Speaking personally, I am not keen on relying only on house monitoring for bass as it can be unpredictable unless you are working with the same crew/gear night in and night out, in order that you can tweak it to your liking and really work the sound. Thus, I carry a full range stage rig to guarantee that I have the chance of getting a tone I like without 100% reliance on house provided gear.

I've been at this for a few years now, and use a front end preamp/processor for any combination of things: amp/footpedal/cabinet emulation, compression, EQ, and other typical special effects. IMO it works well, but hasn't been without a some adjustment and learning curve. That said, the tones being fed to FOH are leagues better than just taking a direct feed off of a bass or out of a bass head, and relying on the FOH mixer to shape the sound. Monitoring with Full Range bass speakers means that the FOH gets essentially what I'm hearing, with only minor tweaks needed if done properly.

All I can say is that this method does work - at least for me - and that the pre-processing strategy is absolutely key to its success if you want it to sound like something that you are used to in a traditional bass amp rig. Pedals like the SansAmp BDDI, the MXR M-80, and the MS60B (which emulates both of these, as well as a bunch of well-known bass amps and cabinets) will get you in the ballpark straightaway.

I will say, though, that a lot depends on the bass. I have a couple basses that have their flaws enhanced going pure direct (no preamp) into a good full range speaker system, while others can sound really excellent just using a little bit of smoothing compression and working the tone knobs of the bass itself. But for certain, this works only with bass tones that are SUPPOSED to be unadulterated (i.e., sound like a natural bass, as opposed to a bass that has grit, overdrive, etc.). If you're looking for "vintage" amp tones, or aggressive metal tones, then some kind of preamp/compression strategy is absolute necessary. Not to exclude simple/generic bass tones either, the harmonic distortion generated by preamp overdrive can really sweeten and fatten an otherwise nice - but fairly sterile sounding - bass tone, especially when run direct to PA cabs.

JMHO.

 

[musicman7722]

May I pipe in here I think my question might help this thread. I play a steinberger Q bass into a sans amp Bddi. The sans amp feeds my amp and the foh. Last night my foh person said my sound had no definition. I didn't know what to say or do. He said not to worries its only the bass and the mix was good. Ok this is not a foh bash thread. What would you do with the sans amp to help the issue. I run it in the traditional mode. All preamp with all settings at noon exc. presence which is at 9.

In the bass I favor the bridge pickup just a nudge and have my meg bts preamp a notch above center.

Chris

 

[Nephilymbass]

I run a sans amp RBI to FOH and have been doing so since i got it like the month it came out. With an active bass its really flexible. I run mine relatively flat (nothing boosted above 1 o'clock or cut below 11 o'clock). For switching from a rock tone to a slap tone I just roll back the blend on the sans amp some and mess with the eq on my bass a little.

 

[jimfist]

May I pipe in here I think my question might help this thread. I play a steinberger Q bass into a sans amp Bddi. The sans amp feeds my amp and the foh. Last night my foh person said my sound had no definition. I didn't know what to say or do. He said not to worries its only the bass and the mix was good. Ok this is not a foh bash thread. What would you do with the sans amp to help the issue. I run it in the traditional mode. All preamp with all settings at noon exc. presence which is at 9.

In the bass I favor the bridge pickup just a nudge and have my meg bts preamp a notch above center.

Chris

Tough to say on that one...could be many contributing factors. Are you at 50% wet/dry mix on the Sans Amp? If too muddy or undefined, I'd work the Bass and Drive knobs, rolling them back until the midrange becomes more defined. And also, as mentioned, use the Mix knob to find a good blend between the dry/effected bass tone. Otherwise, you may need another approach (different preamp pedal or add an EQ stomp pedal) to allow you more tonal options. Also, the more toward the bridge pickup the more midrange definition to your sound. That said, unless you're trying to sound like Jaco, the SansAmp is a pretty solid way to tone shape bass for most rock applications. Maybe the sound tech was a bit off that night???

 

[tech21nyc]

May I pipe in here I think my question might help this thread. I play a steinberger Q bass into a sans amp Bddi. The sans amp feeds my amp and the foh. Last night my foh person said my sound had no definition. I didn't know what to say or do. He said not to worries its only the bass and the mix was good. Ok this is not a foh bash thread. What would you do with the sans amp to help the issue. I run it in the traditional mode. All preamp with all settings at noon exc. presence which is at 9.

In the bass I favor the bridge pickup just a nudge and have my meg bts preamp a notch above center.

Chris

If by traditional mode do you mean the Fat Tube setting? Those sample settings were done with a passive P Bass and probably don't sound the same with your Steinberger.

The Bass Driver was originally designed as a bass specific DI to get the sound of a mic'd vintage tube amp tone direct to the board. It was meant to be run in "parallel" with your bass amp. It's fine to run it into your bass amp as many players do but it's highly unlikely that your bass amp sounds the same as the PA system.

My suggestion would be to try to listen to the sound coming out of the mains (if possible) just to hear what the FOH is hearing. I would also ask what they mean by "no definition". Is it too distorted, too dark etc... An easy fix might be dialing back the drive and increasing the highs or possibly reducing the blend.

It's a tough call, if your bass sounded fine to you but not to the sound person. This was why the Bass Driver was originally developed so you could use your amp like you always do and the sound person (or you) could adjust the DI feed of the SansAmp independently from the sound of your bass amp.

 

[jimfist]

^^^^ that's the best info you're going to get right there.

 

[musicman7722]

If by traditional mode do you mean the Fat Tube setting? Those sample settings were done with a passive P Bass and probably don't sound the same with your Steinberger.

The Bass Driver was originally designed as a bass specific DI to get the sound of a mic'd vintage tube amp tone direct to the board. It was meant to be run in "parallel" with your bass amp. It's fine to run it into your bass amp as many players do but it's highly unlikely that your bass amp sounds the same as the PA system.

My suggestion would be to try to listen to the sound coming out of the mains (if possible) just to hear what the FOH is hearing. I would also ask what they mean by "no definition". Is it too distorted, too dark etc... An easy fix might be dialing back the drive and increasing the highs or possibly reducing the blend.

It's a tough call, if your bass sounded fine to you but not to the sound person. This was why the Bass Driver was originally developed so you could use your amp like you always do and the sound person (or you) could adjust the DI feed of the SansAmp independently from the sound of your bass amp.

First off I believe it is the fat tube setting. All pots except the mix and the presence are at noon. Mix at 100% and presence at 9. I must say that I've been using these since the first unit came out with interior trim pots and now I hate the sound of my bass straight through an amp

I run the 1/4" out to my amdp the xlr to the mixer. I also use IEM and I have only the FOH versoin of my bass in them so I don't hear my amp at all. I will start by rolling the bass and treble on the sansamp down to 10 or 11 and see if that helps. Would you also roll off the drive and up the gain?

Chris

 

[tech21nyc]

I would just forget the sample settings and just start by dialing in a clean amp emulated tone to start with and gradually adding some drive and take it from there. Get your clean "tone" first and as you add drive you may need to compensate with the bass, treble and presence as overdrive changes the frequency content of the signal.

You're set up is a little confusing. You're running into your amp via the 1/4" SansAmp out and then sending a signal to the PA but you don't hear your bass amp at all? What's the bass amp being used for? How exactly are you setting the tone if you don't hear your amp? Usually running the SansAmp into your amp and simultaneously running to the board will yield two different tones as your bass amp will color the tone of the SansAmp while the PA (in theory) is flat response.

 

[capncal]

mike your rumble!

 

[musicman7722]

I would just forget the sample settings and just start by dialing in a clean amp emulated tone to start with and gradually adding some drive and take it from there. Get your clean "tone" first and as you add drive you may need to compensate with the bass, treble and presence as overdrive changes the frequency content of the signal.

You're set up is a little confusing. You're running into your amp via the 1/4" SansAmp out and then sending a signal to the PA but you don't hear your bass amp at all? What's the bass amp being used for? How exactly are you setting the tone if you don't hear your amp? Usually running the SansAmp into your amp and simultaneously running to the board will yield two different tones as your bass amp will color the tone of the SansAmp while the PA (in theory) is flat response.

First off let me say thank you for your replies both on this thread and many others I've been reading over the last two days. Last night I ordered the paradriver in hopes that would help though I'm reading now it is the rack mount preamp on the floor. I never did like that as I couldn't get the bddi sound out of it, ha. Anyway the amp is for all the dinosaurs in my band that have to use amps. If I had my way I'd lose the stage rig anyway. FOH doesn't see the signal from my rig at all. I do adjust the tone in my IEM via my onstage IEM Mackie Dl1608 mixer, but not really that much. And all comments from me are based on my FOH guys saying recently that there was no definition to my foh sound but it didn't matter as it was the bass. And he couldn't hear my stage amp out front to tell the difference anyway.

Chris