Playing faster - brick wall, or plateau?

[AngelCrusher]

Thanks for the info. I think that's essentially the same technique. I pretty much do the same thing, except I either transcribe and use a click, or if the phrasing is weird I use an audio editor and time-stretch one bar at a time until I can play at the right tempo.

Looks like the 'play slow and build from there' approach is the only one. It does work, but i'm still wondering if there's more to it. Economy of motion is definitely key.

Its a mental skill. You can play fast but to what end if you don't know what you are playing or where to go? Speed is a combo of harmonic knowledge and solid technique. The worst thing ever is a guy just playing fast for no reason.

I would suggest learning the major scale (you know it already I am sure, bare with me) so you can use it all over the neck.

For example I can play a Gmin9 and solo all over the upper frets with that by combining it with Bb major since they are same thing. So now I am have total coverage of the 12f fret to the 20th and can hit different licks without hesitation. You need to be able to hear all the patterns and know the notes you are playing. That in itself will make you a faster player.

 

[Loring]

Its a mental skill. You can play fast but to what end if you don't know what you are playing or where to go? Speed is a combo of harmonic knowledge and solid technique. The worst thing ever is a guy just playing fast for no reason.

I would suggest learning the major scale (you know it already I am sure, bare with me) so you can use it all over the neck.

For example I can play a Gmin9 and solo all over the upper frets with that by combining it with Bb major since they are same thing. So now I am have total coverage of the 12f fret to the 20th and can hit different licks without hesitation. You need to be able to hear all the patterns and know the notes you are playing. That in itself will make you a faster player.

While it will improve your improvisation skill. It will not make you a physically faster player. Repetition will develop finger independance and speed.

I could study pictures of the finger board and memorized every note and scale pattern but until i put the hours in - not gonna change a thing with actual speed - both right and left hand.

It is a mental and physical thing - your mind has to reprogram itself to sync both hands for attack and voice but just knowing the fingerboard will not help.

Conversely - not knowing the fingerboard at all and just repeating patterns will in fact speed your playing up. It may not be musical (depending on the patterns practised) but your hand synchronization and speed will increase.

 

[project_c]

Its a mental skill. You can play fast but to what end if you don't know what you are playing or where to go? Speed is a combo of harmonic knowledge and solid technique. The worst thing ever is a guy just playing fast for no reason.

I would suggest learning the major scale (you know it already I am sure, bare with me) so you can use it all over the neck.

For example I can play a Gmin9 and solo all over the upper frets with that by combining it with Bb major since they are same thing. So now I am have total coverage of the 12f fret to the 20th and can hit different licks without hesitation. You need to be able to hear all the patterns and know the notes you are playing. That in itself will make you a faster player.

I totally agree with what you're saying, but my aim isn't necessarily to play fast aimlessly. I play in a gigging jazz band which means I have to solo over fast tunes from time to time, and I want to improve my technique so I don't hit barriers caused by higher bpm's. I'm on board with the concept of tasteful solos, and not having to always bust out endless 16th note solos, but I don't want my lack of technical ability to be the reason for avoiding them.

I think fast playing often gets lumped in with other 'showy' techniques (fast slapping, double thumb etc) but the fact is most 'serious' players have speed on tap when they need it, they have clearly worked hard on that aspect of their playing. Don't get me wrong, I can take a reasonably fast solo if I need to, but I can really feel my limitations when I do, so I just want to work on that aspect of my playing a bit more.

 

[AngelCrusher]

If its basic finger dexterity i guess that is an issue

I already play quite fast when needed and know how to do it so i am just telling you how i got there. And yes, i play fusion and jazz so i get what you are saying.

Honestly i think learning horn solos is the way to go. Just having those licks down will improve dexterity, speed and musicality.


Speed exercises - jaco had a lot of good ones. Play the major scale descending and ascending in 3rds and 4ths. Thats a good one. You can grab his book on it and his warm ups are great. John patitucis old videos were my go tos as well.

 

[AngelCrusher]

While it will improve your improvisation skill. It will not make you a physically faster player. Repetition will develop finger independance and speed.

I could study pictures of the finger board and memorized every note and scale pattern but until i put the hours in - not gonna change a thing with actual speed - both right and left hand.

It is a mental and physical thing - your mind has to reprogram itself to sync both hands for attack and voice but just knowing the fingerboard will not help.

Conversely - not knowing the fingerboard at all and just repeating patterns will in fact speed your playing up. It may not be musical (depending on the patterns practised) but your hand synchronization and speed will increase.

I never said study pictures of the fingerboard. The point was more about putting hours in on the proper things.

Improvising in jazz is about harmonic knowledge so repating patterns is fine but understanding how to use them on the fly is a key part of playing fast in jazz music.

My above post on patitucci and jaco should get him on the right path.

 

[AngelCrusher]

Forgot to add that I am a huge Andrews fan. His work with Stern was just the best. Nothing about him is warp speed to me, I think he just has good technique and his harmonic knowledge is on another plane. Transcribing some of his solos and stealing some licks is highly recommended.

Additionally, he was influenced a lot by Jaco. So I would definitely suggest studying Jaco's exercises which can be found for free on youtube. (his instructional video).

For some mind bending warp speed, the just released Spirit Fingers record has some ridiculousness.

 

[Wannabebass]

I realize this is a zombie thread, but it is pertinent to the question on my mind at the moment.
I'm a new player (approx 1 yr) and trying to get some staccato riffs (cleanly played) up to a reasonable speed. To get faster "Simply Keep Practicing" is not enough. You have to look at ways to increase the efficiency of your hand movements, such as:
1. Look at an alternative fingering. On a fast run down the A string 7th fret from D to C to Bflat, is it easier to play pinky, first (or 2nd), stay on the A string and then position change to hit the Bflat with your first finger, or is it faster to switch strings and get the Blat on the E string 8th fret with your pinky? I am actually curious which technique would be recommended - I seem to be at the same speed both ways.
2. Check your plucking fingers - I unconsciously was losing the index-middle pattern. Once I corrected that and switched to raking from the A to E string, things felt much less rushed.
My question for the group is generally what do you find better for a stacatto fast passage - switching strings or staying on one string and sliding? I find it very difficult to hit the notes cleanly and accurately while sliding.
Thanks for any ideas you may have.

 

[Jazzdogg]

Let me add something a teacher once said to me: "You need to to know the music so well that you could play it in your head, including seeing each finger move in your mind, as well as consciously knowing every note, every finger, every pick stroke - and, the ability to hear the music in your head as you do all this." And when I first heard this I felt overwhelmed to the point where I thought "how could I possibly?", well in reality, this IS the way the mind and body plays Guitar/Bass/Piano....whatever

I very often listen to songs from memory and notice details of which I was previously only unconsciously aware.
The freaky part is that when I listen to a recording of the song to hear whether the details I "heard" previously were real or imaginary, they are real; I memorized the details without being aware of it.
When it comes time to pick up a bass and play, my hands are aware of the details, even though my conscious mind may not be.
I mention this because the stumbling block to improved playing is sometimes physical, and sometimes attributable to a lapse in conscious thought.
Mental practice us at least as critical as physical practice.

 

[Wannabebass]

Agreed- I definitely have to remain very focussed on playing or it all falls apart. I'm told humming the part you are trying to play helps- any experience with that?

 

[Lobster11]

I realize this is a zombie thread, but it is pertinent to the question on my mind at the moment.
I'm a new player (approx 1 yr) and trying to get some staccato riffs (cleanly played) up to a reasonable speed. To get faster "Simply Keep Practicing" is not enough. You have to look at ways to increase the efficiency of your hand movements, such as:
1. Look at an alternative fingering. On a fast run down the A string 7th fret from D to C to Bflat, is it easier to play pinky, first (or 2nd), stay on the A string and then position change to hit the Bflat with your first finger, or is it faster to switch strings and get the Blat on the E string 8th fret with your pinky? I am actually curious which technique would be recommended - I seem to be at the same speed both ways.
2. Check your plucking fingers - I unconsciously was losing the index-middle pattern. Once I corrected that and switched to raking from the A to E string, things felt much less rushed.
My question for the group is generally what do you find better for a stacatto fast passage - switching strings or staying on one string and sliding? I find it very difficult to hit the notes cleanly and accurately while sliding.
Thanks for any ideas you may have.

I'm almost always faster and more accurate playing across two adjacent strings without shifting. But which way I actually choose to do it depends on what's coming next. For example, "Sultans of Swing" involves a D-C-Bb run, but I usually play that all on the A string because once I get to the Bb I want to have the F and G available immediately on the E string below, but in other songs I use two strings since I'm going to stay in that same position afterwards.

You're definitely right about the plucking fingers. Some people prefer strict alternation, and others like to "rake" when going down a string. Either is okay but you have to make up your mind or you can easily get your fingers tangled up. So, it's worth taking time to work out the fingering slowly and carefully, until it becomes automatic, before practicing at full speed.