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Double Bass Playing in tune with several basses together

Les Fret

Les Fret

Sep 9, 2009
7,207
6,909
nextlevel-slapbass.com
#1
My intonation is pretty good. Also according to my teacher.
My ears can adjust fast to what I hear. Also when playing in a band where I am the only bassplayer or playing with a cd or drone I don't have much problems. But when playing together with another double bass player or my teacher I have more trouble to get a good intonation.
I don't know if I have to adjust to the pitch of the other player or if the other player has to adjust to my pitch. That makes me feel insecure about my pitch. Is it that you have to adjust to the most experienced player?

I have never played in an orchestra. But how do you manage to play spot on when playing with say six basses? It is already hard to play exactly in tune with only one bass let alone six.
 
#2
Two players is hard, three players is much harder, but once you have four you have a section and then it's easy, because everybody's instruments kind of lock together and you can feel the consensus pitch under your finger. Once you have eight players it's almost impossible to play out of tune, the instrument just won't do it unless you're way off.

Essentially, with two or three players, you just have to be super secure in yourself. Having a bright sounding instrument helps a lot; don't set up your instrument to sound like the basses do from the audience or on the recording, it should be really quite bright and soloistic close up, so you can hear yourself even in the thick of the orchestra. When things get loud, you may have to press your ear against the side of the neck (discreetly!).
 
#3
Les Fret said:
I don't know if I have to adjust to the pitch of other player or if the other player has to adjust to my pitch.QUOTE]

Unfortunately, the answer to this question is, "yes."

My wife is an oboe player and my life haunted with stories how some woodwind player refuses to adjust to the rest of the section which makes the whole orchestra sound out of tune. Unless everyone listens and adjusts, it's going to be a struggle.
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#4
Hello :)
this thread has now made me worry, but I am happy I've read it as I will discuss this with my teacher at my lesson tonight!
I have just started learning classical double bass 8 months ago and I have just joined an amateur orchestra last week with it, my teacher kept pushing me to join it as I am almost ready for my grade 5 exam!
In this orchestra they don't have a regular bass player so they end up asking very experienced bass players to join us just on 'concert day', and 2 or 3 bass players will materialise, usually 2 though....
I am going to all the rehearsals and at rehearsals I am the only double bass :eek:
so I never knew you can end up with a pitch problem if playing with one/two/three other basses but the problem then disappears when you have 6+, if I didn't read this thread I would not have known until concert night when it might have been too late!!!!
so thank you for posting and I shall discuss with my teacher later this evening :D
 
#5
I'm in a similar situation with an amateur (although very good) orchestra I play in, quite often the only bass player, and being put in at the deep end in this way is a great way to learn, provided you have a tutor to support you and answer the many questions that will inevitably crop up. The professional bass players they get at the concerts are often a mine of information (and stories) and usually happy to share it with keen upcoming bass players.

Good luck, I'm sure you will enjoy the experience.

Jennifer
 
#6
When I saw the title, I thought it should be in the humour section!

But seriously folks, I find playing with two the most difficult.

Also, there is usually a corresponding small cello section and the worst cellist ends up right in front of me!

Then there's the second bassoon, but don't get me started...
 
#8
I've played in orchestras for about 6 years now, and in the past three years i've been playing in orchestras with bigger sections. What i've found is that I notice my intonation a lot with a 2 person section, and less (though not significantly) in larger sections. I agree that larger sections will mix together, but the people you hear the most are the people next to you, and therefore your intonation will be slightly bothersome, should people be playing out of tune. Its hard to figure out what the problem is in a large section; the best solution is that if you hear something wrong, check yourself. If you're fine, you can blame others :D
 
#9
Bill Bentgen said:
Les Fret said:
I don't know if I have to adjust to the pitch of other player or if the other player has to adjust to my pitch.QUOTE]

Unfortunately, the answer to this question is, "yes."
.
Click to expand...

So you think the most experienced player takes the lead and the other player has to follow the intonation of the most experienced one?

If both players try to adjust to each others pitch at the same time it also not going to work.

Sometimes when it is out of tune I have trouble hearing if it is me who is playing out of tune or the other player.
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#10
Les Fret said:
My intonation is pretty good. Also according to my teacher.
My ears can adjust fast to what I hear. Also when playing in a band where I am the only bassplayer or playing with a cd or drone I don't have much problems. But when playing together with another double bass player or my teacher I have more trouble to get a good intonation.
I don't know if I have to adjust to the pitch of the other player or if the other player has to adjust to my pitch. That makes me feel insecure about my pitch. Is it that you have to adjust to the most experienced player?


No matter the situation the minute you add doubt or deference to the equation your intonation will get funny. Pianos add another thing.
Try to keep your confidence and use the facilitites you need to play in tune, try to make things right, but don't START with deferring to another player or instrument.
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#11
In my high school chamber orchestra i am one of two bassists and we are both decent players but as a section we have great difficulty agreeing on pitches. It got so bad that me and him meet before class during lunch and do scales.
But if you are working hard with drones and scale exercises (I recommend the "vomit" exercise) you should talk with whoever you are playing with about the issue but if the person you are playing with is out of tune and you are in a preformance setting dont try to prove your point
i found that out the hard way during Elgar's and Introduction and Allegro
 
#12
Les Fret said:
Bill Bentgen said:
So you think the most experienced player takes the lead and the other player has to follow the intonation of the most experienced one?.
Click to expand...

Experience has nothing to do with it. It all has to do with what's right at any given momemt in time.

If all of the woodwinds go sharp because of temperature changes in the hall, you'd better listen and adjust. Just because you know you are "in tune" by yourself doesn't make the music sound good.

In a section, listen to the principal. If he/she is wrong, you're all going to take the blame, but at least you'll be together.

I played with the same cellist doing Bach Cantatas for about 15 years. We REALLY played in tune together, because we both listened we both made adjustments. We got hired for a lot of jobs just because of that.
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#13
I spent the best part of my career playing 2nd bass in pro chamber orchestras with some of the finest first players in the world occasionally playing first bass. THe only bit of advice I can give is to practice being totally (I mean TOTALLY) subserviant musically to the guy on your left.
That said, you will be asking 'how?'.
1. Try singing with someone who isn't a trained musician and 'go with them'. try not to correct them in any way, not rythmically not pitchwise or even interpretationally. Don't crescendo if they don't, come in early if they do don't count the rests between phrases just FOLLOW! This is a great way to become the best 'real' bass player in the group.

2. play duets with the others in your orchestra. Get down to nitty-gritty bowing and fingering details which might seem really 'over the top' knit-picking. Which part of the bow do you play a certain note and whow fast does a crescend come, or exactly how long is a staccato. Get down in the dirt with your desk partner and you'll play tons better!!

3. In a big section with six - twelve players again the above applies. Give way to the left! Do his bowing, his fingering, his vibrato... everthing. Also in big sections there is no replacement for sectional rehearsals. but get a big room or the orchestral hall because you won't hear the real sound of the basses otherwise. The well tempered bass section is a thing of great power and beauty and the thrill of being a part of that sound at the beginning of Mahler 2 or those glorious moments in Tchaik 6 aremoments to cherish a life time if the section is on form.

Remember that music is not a competition and just get on with your fellow players and you'll soon be wondering how you didn't play in tune with the other guys.

Finally, a tale of fine tunning. I was playing second bass to Takis Kapoyanis now the principal solo bass with the Athens State Orchestra in a performance of The Carnival of The Animals by Saint-Seans The conductor asked us to play the Elephant together (there were only two of us). Curiously, Takis had never worked this piece up and spent an afternoon woking out complex fingerings and bowings with some clever interpretational dipping and diving. Takis is a brilliant player and his interpretation was really quite new (and very nice too). I, on the other hand, am a traditionalist and had learned the Elephant as my second ever piece on the bass and have played it the same way for years in auditions and concerts. In the rehearsal Takis set off on his new reworking without really any indications on the page (just a few bowings and wiggly lines for ritenutos which the pianist would be able to follow. I went into overdrive in the 'Give way to the left' law playing blow for blow everything Takis did. After the rehearsal the conductor came to us and repeated his request for us both to play it Takis imediately told him that we were both playing in the rehearsal, to which the conductor replied, 'Oh, I thought the second bass was just 'ghosting the fingerings.' We were both playing exaxtly the same! The concert was recorded but I don't have access to the Athens Concert Hall archives.

Sorry for babbling too much.
FC
 
#16
"But seriously folks, I find playing with two the most difficult.

Also, there is usually a corresponding small cello section and the worst cellist ends up right in front of me!

Then there's the second bassoon, but don't get me started..."

Boy, does this describe one of the community orchestra's I'm in - including the 2nd bassoon!

But Damon's advice above - about not letting doubt in - is really key.

Last season I was the only bass for most of the rehearsals and we brought in a a very fine (and very generous) pro player for the concerts. The first concert next to him I just wobbled everything - even though I had nailed most of it in rehearsal

Second concert, I was really working myself up into a real tizzy, when I finally said to myself, 'look, you know what you're doing, so go out and enjoy it - even the wrong notes' - I took a LOT of pressure off myself.

We did the concert and he turns to me afterward and says 'wow - you've really been practicing.'

Half of it's in our minds - the other half in our hands.

Louis
 
#18
Louis F, It's great to have a good player on your left (especially when there are only two of you). You will actually find that it is easier to play well in this situation. If you are at about the same skill level you will have a good time but if you are not up to the 'hired pro' then you will have to do two things which have to remain a secret between you and me (and the whole of the TalkBass comunity). Firstly you will have to learn to 'fake'. Sometimes there are things you cant play but the first player can so you should leave these passages up to the first player but you must look like you're playing! OK you are actually playing most of it but you should try dropping out while still moving the bow correctly and getting round the passage. Don't try to write or improvise simplified versions, just 'drop out' when things get tough. Old players here will have heard of several names for this such as 'soap rosin' or 'the Marcel Marceau technique'. Mostly they call it ghosting, faking or bluffing. Secondly you will learn to take a 'pizz queue' seriously. The worst moment when playing with two basses (appart from being asked to play the Ginestera solo in unison with the other player!) is a single pizzicato!!!
Getting pizz together is really important because there is no room for error. There are two of you and iff you miss it then it sounds like one bass playing two notes. This doesnt happen in big sections because there are enough notes to 'blur' the effect. Watch the first players hand as he prepares and see how he moves it before he finally lets the note go. Match that, and the rest of the orchestra will come and tell you how good the pizzicatos were!

My 'mentor' in this field was the great bass player Alan Fergusson of the BBC Scottish Symphony Orchestra. If the pizzes were ont together he would stand up and glare down the line on the next pizz and point to the section that would be the best 'cue' to come in together. A nod to the violas for instance then a glance round to the conductor, then he would stand right up lead forward and turn round to the section and, with perfect preparation, pluck the string and launch his right hand gracefully arching through the air! It was a great lesson and the section was reknowned as one of the best of all the BBC orchestras while I was there. Thanks Alan!

Cheers
FC
 

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