• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join free Log in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

Playing Modes in Different Keys

B

bluescorpion

Guest
Dec 18, 2013
16
1
#1
Hi All

I've got a theory question for you pro's. I'm trying to learn how to play modes in all of the different keys. As an example I want to play in the key of "F". I know my chord is " F-A-C-E", and I know my modes are "ROOT-1st -2nd-3rd". I have a five string bass and will be starting on the note "C" on the "B" string.

Do I start with the "2nd" playing my modes and then play the "3rd-ROOT-1st" or am I looking at this wrong?

Thanks for the help gang
 
#2
OK hang on. There are two ways to play modes; 1) where you walk the key and the notes stay the same. This walking of the key is known as the Relative mode way of playing and looks like what you have been told about. It is the easiest way to teach someone modes, however, I find that the Parallel way of playing modes to be easier to use on the fly - I'll go into detail...

OK #2 or the Parallel mode way of using modes. Here the key stays the same and the notes change, i.e. F Ionian would use the F major scale or R-2-3-4-5-6-7 the same notes as the F major scale. F Lydian would be R-2-3-#4-5-6-7. One note difference and F Mixolydian would be R-2-3-4-5-6-b7 one note difference.. Those are your major modes. Want the sound of Lydian instead of Ionian just sharp the 4th scale degree of the key scale you are using. Begs the question what sound does Lydian give? Kinda up to your ears, it is so close to Ionian I seldom use Lydian, but it is said to have a day-dreamy sound. If you want a day-dreamy sound sharp the 4. If you want the Latin sound of Mixolydian, flat the 7. If you want a really interesting sound try Lydian dominant by sharping the 4 and flatting the 7 of the major scale.

Want an attractive minor jazz sound use Dorian R-2-b3-4-5-6-b7. Natural minor scale with the b6 sharped into a natural 6.

The minor modes use the natural minor scale as home base, thus, Aeolian is R-2-b3-4-5-b6-b7 same as the natural minor scale. Dorian is R-2-b3-4-5-6-b7. Phrygian is R-b2-b3-4-5-b6-b7. and Locrian is R-b2-b3-4-b5-b6-b7. Aeolian is said to have a sad sound, Phrygian has a Middle Eastern sound and Locrian has a dark and tense sound. Notice on Locrian you change two notes the b2 and the b5.

Now if you play your modes over a chord progression you are going to have a hard time hearing the signature sound of the mode as the tonal center of the chord progression will not let the modal sound develop. The above is what modes are, how to use them is another story. To hear the modal signature sound the mode needs to be played over a modal vamp progression. Yes, if the guitar or solo instrument is playing a mode we harmony guys need to be laying down a modal vamp for the guitar's modal efforts to be heard. Long story... If you are using a mode for your solo, the other guys now need to lay down a modal vamp for you. I doubt that happening.

I do not use modes when I play the bass......
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: DrewM85, Stormer and Timothy Pascale
#4
bluescorpion said:
Thanks for the reply MalcolmAmos. Could you clarify something for me. Are Arpegios the same as modes or are these two separate thing???
Click to expand...
They are two separate things. Modes are moods of a scale. And used most of the time when you are playing melodic or taking a lead break. When you are playing chord tones, i.e. accompaniment bass you normally play the notes of the active chord aka you play arpeggios.

An arpeggio is the notes of a chord. The arpeggio for a Cmaj7 chord would be R-3-5-7. Cm7 would be R-b3-5-b7. C major scale is C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C so the arpeggio for a Cmaj7 chord would be made of the following notes; C, E, G, B. The arpeggio notes for the Cm7 would be; C, Eb, G, Bb.

This may help. How to get started? | TalkBass.com

Have fun.
 
Last edited:
#5
MalcolmAmos said:
They are two separate things. Modes are moods of a scale. And used most of the time when you are playing melodic or taking a lead break. When you are playing chord tones, i.e. accompaniment bass you normally play the notes of the active chord aka you play arpeggios.

An arpeggio is the notes of a chord. The arpeggio for a Cmaj7 chord would be R-3-5-7. Cm7 would be R-b3-5-b7. C major scale is C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C so the arpeggio for a Cmaj7 chord would be made of the following notes; C, E, G, B. The arpeggio notes for the Cm7 would be; C, Eb, G, Bb.

This may help. How to get started? | TalkBass.com

Have fun.
Click to expand...


Thanks for the info malcolm!!! I'm taking notes and letting all of this soak in. Lots of good info to decipher. Thanks again.....
 
#6
bluescorpion said:
in the key of "F". I know my chord is " F-A-C-E", and I know my modes are "ROOT-1st -2nd-3rd".
...Do I start with the "2nd" playing my modes and then play the "3rd-ROOT-1st" or am I looking at this wrong?
Click to expand...

You are looking at it wrong, or you have a misunderstanding of the terminology.
It is so mixed up I have trouble distinguishing what you are actually trying to do.

I will say this: until you grasp arpeggios solidly, you ought to hold off on learning about modes.
There is a PDF link in my sig that covers the basics of theory quite well.
 
#7
Modes are just a variety of different scales that share the same notes within a key. So, the key of C has the notes C, D, E, F, G, A, and B. And the C major scale plays those notes in order from C to C. If we play those same notes in order starting on D and ending on D we have a D dorian mode. All the notes are the same. But, it has a minor feel to it because D serves as the "root" for this different mode. If we build a chord from this mode (D, F, A) we end up with a D minor chord. If we keep doing this, moving up to the E and building a scale and chord from E while staying in the key of C, etc. we come up with all the chords and scales within that key.

From a practical purpose I see knowing how to spell the chords and play the arpeggios as far more important for a bass player than knowing the modes. I'm not saying that they have no application, but unless you plan on doing a great deal of jazz improvisation I don't see the need to put heavy focus on them.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Basically Bob
#8
I think this would be easier to answer if we knew what you were trying to achieve. The original question has a lot of confused ideas in there. Is it a bassline or a solo you're going for? Is it through a chord progression or on a single static chord (let's say F major as you mentioned)? Are you wanting to play the modes in the key of F just as an exercise in learning them?

If you want to learn the modes in F, just play through them plain and simple: F Ionian, G Dorian, A Phrygian, Bb Lydian, C Mixolydian, D Aeolian, E Locrian. That's it. Learn the sequence of them and then just apply it to the new key. However, I'm a bit concerned that you've misunderstood what they are and why they are used. I think we need to understand what YOU think they are before proceeding.

You seem to have combined the idea of arpeggios and modes together. On the face of it that seems really strange but I can see how that can happen. The chords within a key occur on each scale degree in exactly the same way as the modes so we can link them together:

F Ionian - Fmaj7
G Dorian - Gm7
A Phrygian - Am7
Bb Lydian - Bbmaj7
C Mixolydian - C7
D Aeolian - Dm7
E Locrian - Em7b5

However, arpeggios are NOT modes. Modes are scales. Arpeggios are, well, arpeggios (chords played one note at a time).
 
  • Like
Reactions: GastonD
#10
For me, playing scales is only usable when you know what you can do with it. And then you should not only play these scales just because you can, but use it for making bass lines, melodies.. make music.
Opposite to some other members in this topic, I do use scales in making music. And I do not (only) play jazz, I mostly play pop/rock music. Arpeggio's are great, and I think if you add the other tones of the scale you can get the characteristic sound out of every mode; but you should always try to make music out of it.

These 3 video's may be helpful for answering the question of the title of this topic.

First of all you need to know where all the notes are if you want to play in all keys. You use these notes for finding the root note of a scale (or chord or arpeggio). The more notes you can find, the more overview you get.


Then, you can see all scales and chords in intervals, what is already mentioned here. So, you first have to know where all the intervals all, relative to the root note, the 1. It's the same as for the first video: the more extensive you know this, the more possibilities you get.


Then, you can see all church scales in intervals. In this video there's also explained why the church scales have these intervals.


Putting these videos all together you can play all church scales (video 3) in all keys (video 1) and in different fingerings (video 2).
 
#11
Thanks for all of the input gang. I'm seeing things a little better now. Out of curiosity, is there a particular book that you guys recommend to study 5 string bass guitar theory? I have a pretty good understanding of the basics but would like to find a book that will take you thru beginner - midlevel - advanced stages. (If there is such a book).

Thanks again for all the input......
 
  • Like
Reactions: AudioDwebe
#13
You strings are still tuned in 4ths going up and a 5th coming down.

E string to A string is a 4th.
B string to E string is a 4th.

You can still run your patterns from the E or A string like you have been doing and then have that B string for the low notes, i.e. low ledger notes lower than E....

A 5 gives you one more low string. How you use that is kinda left up to you. Like Mambo4 said I don't know of a book of theory geared just to the 5 string. Theory is theory and you take that to your instrument, in this case to a 5 string bass.

There is (was, can not find it now - do a Google) a string open now on the forum asking how to use the 5th string, that should give you what you are looking for.
 
Last edited:
#14
You can look at it the other way around: if you know the theory on a 4-string, you also know the theory on a 5-, 6-, ..- string. Nothing changes. You only have to know the notes on the extra string.

I don't want to spam too much, but this website: www.svmethod.com is all about music theory, especially for bass guitar. There's also some explanation for 5-strings.
 

Latest posts

Top Bottom
Back