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Double Bass Playing the I7 as an approach note from I to IV?

Jack Clark

Jack Clark

Aug 17, 2008
1,022
14
Idyllwild, California
#1
This has been bugging me quite a while, now, so I'm just gonna ask, even if I do exhibit my ignorance:

Back in the folk music days, when everybody and his brother strummed guitar and sang, we very often went from the I chord to the IV chord by way of a I7, i.e., G/G7/C, and it sounded very natural. The I7 chord seemed to strongly anticipate the approaching IV chord. Sounded good—on guitar.

Okay, so a few months ago, when I began playing bass in a bluegrass group, I began transitioning from I chords to IV chords by using the I7. So, as a simple example, on bass I might play the notes G/F/C. But for some reason, in the key of G, playing the F note on the way to the C chord from the G chord just doesn't sound good to me on bass. It seems kind of unnatural and forced to my ears. The simple B half-step from below on the way to the C just sounds much better to me: G/B/C—the B being a 3rd from the G and the dominant 7th to the C.

Bt why does it sound so natural to me to play G/G7/C chords on guitar, but it doesn't sound right to play G/F/C notes on the accompanying bass? It is just me? Bad ears? Do you guys ever play an F on the way to C from G? I mean, it doesn't sound bad to me, exactly. It just sounds forced, unnatural, and not good—not smooth, if you know what I mean. And yet the chords G/G7/C sound fine on guitar.

I don't have a formal music education, and I feel like I'm missing something here. What is it?

If you think I'm posting this in the wrong section, just let me know and I'll move it.
 
#2
IMO that 'un-natural' sound has to do with poor voice-leading (the movement of individual notes from chord-to-chord).

G - F - C doesn't have a natural sound because the F - C jump (up a 5th) is not a great choice in terms of voice-leading towards your target-note (the C). The reason it sounds good on guitar is that the F in the G7 chord moves down a semitone to E in the C chord and you also have the rest of the chord leading to the complete C chord.

G - B - C sounds good because you are getting to the C from a semitone below. In general, voice-leading sounds best when the approach-note is a semitone above or below the target note. A whole-tone is also acceptable.

So if you want to play the G - F go to the E in the bass instead of the C. This will give the sound of the 1st inversion of the C chord. Just make sure the rest of the band digs it and are aware that you're doing it. Keyboard players can get rather tense when they find themselves playing different bass notes than the bassplayer... and that's the last thing we want, now isn't it :)

I find that a great way to deconstruct changes to find good voice-leading paths is to do something like this:

G7= G CMA7= C
B E
D G
F B

If you compare those two chords you'll find that G is common to both, B is common to both (but usually the B would go up to C if it's in the bass), D can can go OR down a whole-tone, and F usually goes down a semitone to E.

This comparison means that you have OPTIONS when moving from chord to chord. This becomes even more important when soloing, as chord-tones should make up the majority of your solo in order to outline the tune's harmony effectively. Understanding this stuff is also crucial ear-training as once you know what these pathways sound like you'll hear them everywhere and be able to know what people are doing and why it works.

Hope that's helped!
 
#3
Thanks, @war, for an extremely helpful answer. I dunno if that's the only answer, but it makes a whole lot of sense to me—the light bulbs went on. I very much appreciate you taking the time to write all that. This is a great website and guys who answer like that are a huge part of it.

And thanks, particularly, for the tip on deconstructing changes—I'll be doing a lot of that from now one on the way to rewriting a lot of my current basslines.
 
#4
Another reason has to do with register (how high or low a pitch is played). Use of and chord extension (7, 9, 11, 13 etc.) can sound a little funky when they're played low. They're usually stacked above the other notes in a chord. For example, a root-position G7 chord is spelled G-B-D-F (low to high), so the F on the bottom can sound really hip in some situations, but in bluegrass, with big, open chord voicings, it doesn't always jive. Something that IS becoming more common in bluegrass is actually "realizing" the I7 chord by using the b7 chord as a passing chord to get to the IV. In other words, in the people's key of "G," a guitarist might play 2 beats of "G," then to beats of "F," and land on "C." Have a guitarist try this and play along. See if it suits your ear....-dk
 
#5
If you did a descending bass line of G, F natural, E and D to get to the C (I7 to IV) it'll sound good as well.

But, as the F natural will probably be somewhere in an upper voice, it'll will most likely descending to the E as the third of the C chord.

So, to create contrary motion and to create a diminished 4th against the F so that they resolve to a pretty major third, it will sound better to play G, G, A, B, C on the bass.
 
#7
Primarily, the problem is that F is not diatonic (it's not in the key of G) so it's going to introduce tension. You've got to properly handle notes that create tension. These notes are better played by the solo instruments, played in a higher register, and properly resolved using good voice leading. Doesn't mean that you can't play them on bass but you've just got to know what you are doing.

You could get away with it if the chordal instruments were to play a I7 with you.
It would be better if you played it in a higher register.
It would also work better if your voice leading was something like G F E or G F G.
You want to pass by the note rather than camp out on it for a long duration. (Generally you want chord tones to be of longer duration than non-diatonic tones in your bass lines.)

When selecting notes for a solid bass line that clearly spell out the harmony, this is the order of note choices you want to follow:

#1 - Chord Tones
#2 - Diatonic Notes
#3 - Non-diatonic Notes

All these are just guidelines that a master player could probably ignore and still make a killer bass line. But for the rest of us they're useful general rules.

Even with all of this said I'd probably never play an F natural when presented with a G chord to a C chord progression unless it was a rock/blues tune where the dominant 7th sound was expected and implied in the music genre. Most often, in the music I'm playing, I'm going to play an F# if I'm walking from a G to a C/E.

You state that you were playing bluegrass music. I have to say that I have no idea about bluegrass music so don't know if I7 chords are part of the bluegrass sound.
 
#8
Jack,
I use the 7 of the I7 occasionally, but tend to return to the root of I before moving to the IV, e.g. G G F G - C in the key of G. That movement gets the sound of the F into the G7 chord, but the G-to-C voice leading sounds more natural in a bluegrass setting.
A good example of playing the 7 of a I7: check out The Lucky One on Alison Krauss & Union Station's New Favorite. There is a break around 2:24 where Barry Bales plays a nice fat Ab against a Bb7 on the way to an Eb chord. It's a nice touch!
Wally
 
#9
To help clear up the theory portion of the OP's question...

The chord being called "I7" is actually V7/IV.

In the key G Major, the I7 is G, B, D, F#.

The chord being discussed is G7 - G, B, D, F. This is the Dominant Seventh chord of the key of C Major, or V7 of IV (V7/IV). This is why V7/IV so nicely resolves to the IV chord. One is modulating, perhaps only temporarily.
 
#10
wallydoesbass said:
Jack,
I use the 7 of the I7 occasionally, but tend to return to the root of I before moving to the IV, e.g. G G F G - C in the key of G. That movement gets the sound of the F into the G7 chord, but the G-to-C voice leading sounds more natural in a bluegrass setting.
A good example of playing the 7 of a I7: check out The Lucky One on Alison Krauss & Union Station's New Favorite. There is a break around 2:24 where Barry Bales plays a nice fat Ab against a Bb7 on the way to an Eb chord. It's a nice touch!
Wally
Click to expand...

Interesting idea, Wally—1,1,♭7,1,4. Seems like that would work in bluegrass. It also makes me wonder about 1,1,♭7,♭7,4. Like maybe the pedal emphasis would legitimize the ♭7, if you get what I mean? I dunno, maybe not, I haven't tried it with the group yet. And I'll definitely see if I can find that Barry Bales line.

Edit: I think I found that Barry Bales A♭, but it was after the break behind Krauss's vocal again, if we're talking about the same thing. Yeah, and it sounded really good.
 
#11
Stick_Player said:
To help clear up the theory portion of the OP's question...

The chord being called "I7" is actually V7/IV.

In the key G Major, the I7 is G, B, D, F♯.

The chord being discussed is G7 - G, B, D, F. This is the Dominant Seventh chord of the key of C Major, or V7 of IV (V7/IV). This is why V7/IV so nicely resolves to the IV chord. One is modulating, perhaps only temporarily.
Click to expand...

Well, by "I7" I was meaning G7 all along—the G triad plus the dom 7—the F♮. I guess I would have written IMaj7 or Imaj7 or I∆7 if I had meant the F#, but I've not had much formal music training, so . . . . And I don't understand what is meant by "V7 of IV (V7/IV)".
 
#12
bejoyous said:
If you did a descending bass line of G, F natural, E and D to get to the C (I7 to IV) it'll sound good as well.

But, as the F natural will probably be somewhere in an upper voice, it'll will most likely descending to the E as the third of the C chord.

So, to create contrary motion and to create a diminished 4th against the F so that they resolve to a pretty major third, it will sound better to play G, G, A, B, C on the bass.
Click to expand...

hublocker said:
Walk up.

G A B C
Click to expand...

Good ideas that I'll work on. Thanks, both of you.
 
#13
Art Araya said:
Primarily, the problem is that F is not diatonic (it's not in the key of G) so it's going to introduce tension. You've got to properly handle notes that create tension. These notes are better played by the solo instruments, played in a higher register, and properly resolved using good voice leading. Doesn't mean that you can't play them on bass but you've just got to know what you are doing.

You could get away with it if the chordal instruments were to play a I7 with you.
It would be better if you played it in a higher register.
It would also work better if your voice leading was something like G F E or G F G.
You want to pass by the note rather than camp out on it for a long duration. (Generally you want chord tones to be of longer duration than non-diatonic tones in your bass lines.)

When selecting notes for a solid bass line that clearly spell out the harmony, this is the order of note choices you want to follow:

#1 - Chord Tones
#2 - Diatonic Notes
#3 - Non-diatonic Notes

All these are just guidelines that a master player could probably ignore and still make a killer bass line. But for the rest of us they're useful general rules.

. . .
Click to expand...


Thanks, Art. I'll have to work this all in, which I will do. At my level, I don't do any of this automatically.
 
#14
Jack Clark said:
Well, by "I7" I was meaning G7 all along—the G triad plus the dom 7—the F♮. I guess I would have written IMaj7 or Imaj7 or I∆7 if I had meant the F#, but I've not had much formal music training, so . . . . And I don't understand what is meant by "V7 of IV (V7/IV)".
Click to expand...

I knew what you meant. I was trying to explain why the G7 to the C works.

If you start in the key G Major and introduce a G7 that resolves to a C chord, you used the Dominant Seventh chord of C Major.

Knowing this, you can then construct a baseline that works for V-I progressions. The cited example of going from Bb to Eb by utilizing the Ab does this.
 
#15
hublocker said:
Walk up.

G A B C
Click to expand...

Unless the IV is on the off beat, don't do that. You don't want to be confusing people by telling them to walk up to the IV chord and land a beat to early. You'll manage yourself to get fired real fast.

Try G D A B then to C. Or G A Bb B to C. Possibilities are endless, especially when you syncopate beats. Every walk up is transposable to every key.
 
#19
I think that you have to talk his kind of thing over with a band. If you're playing a I7(or a V7 of IV), you're introducing non-diatonic tones into the harmony. It is possible that the melody or the comping won't lend itself well to the introduction of that kind of tension.
 
#20
dkimbrobass said:
. . . Something that IS becoming more common in bluegrass is actually "realizing" the I7 chord by using the b7 chord as a passing chord to get to the IV. In other words, in the people's key of "G," a guitarist might play 2 beats of "G," then to beats of "F," and land on "C." Have a guitarist try this and play along. See if it suits your ear....-dk
Click to expand...

Yeah. Actually, this sounds like what I was asking about, except that you're indicating using the ♭7 (F in key of G) on the third and fourth beats on the way to the IV instead of just the fourth beat. So you're suggesting that pedaling the ♭7 like this sort of legitimizes it? And you hear this as becoming more common in bluegrass today?
 

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