Playing unlined fretless

[SteveCS]

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Even if I filed the nut, the wood on the headstock lip behind the nut is touching the string. I wouldn't want to file the wood.
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It is perfectly normal and acceptable, arguably necessary, to groove the wood behind the nut on these Fender-style designs. This is my EBMM SR4:

 

[Les Fret]

It's acceptable and can not harm but I don't think it's necessary. I have no idea what the purpose would be?

 

[SteveCS]

It's acceptable and can not harm but I don't think it's necessary. I have no idea what the purpose would be?

To create a break angle over the nut. Compared to a fretted instrument, if the slot heights are minimised to a few 1/1000ths of an inch and the board is at the same level both sides of the nut (as they are with all 'nut in a slot' designs), any 'fall-away' in the slot will place the back edge of the slot at or below the level of the board. This means the string is not seated in the slot but resting only between the front edge and the end of the board where it falls away into the headstock. Putting in a groove ensures the string is seated properly in the nut.
To illustrate the point, the angles here are exaggerated and not to scale:

 

[Les Fret]

That makes sense. But only a very small percentage of fretless basses have it like in the third picture...I think because the strings can 'eat in the wood' behind the nut like on your bass. Most flatten the wood a bit more than in picture 2, so that the string doesn't touch the wood at all.

 

[SteveCS]

That makes sense. But only a very small percentage of fretless basses have it like in the third picture...I think because the strings can 'eat in the wood' behind the nut like on your bass. Most flatten the wood a bit more than in picture 2, so that the string doesn't touch the wood at all.

As I recall, when I had my old fretless Wal bass ('78 ProBass) reconditioned by Ian and Pete, it came back from the workshop the same way, with small grooves cut into the fingerboard behind the nut. It was certainly necessary due to the string retainers pulling the string tightly down behind the nut. I don't think it is common from the factory, but it is something that happens with top-end after-market workshop setups - I had no qualms about having it done on the SR4 when that went in for maintenance (with Charlie Chandler) a few years back.

 

[Les Fret]

As I recall, when I had my old fretless Wal bass ('78 ProBass) reconditioned by Ian and Pete, it came back from the workshop the same way, with small grooves cut into the fingerboard behind the nut. It was certainly necessary due to the string retainers pulling the string tightly down behind the nut. I don't think it is common from the factory, but it is something that happens with top-end after-market workshop setups - I had no qualms about having it done on the SR4 when that went in for maintenance (with Charlie Chandler) a few years back.

Now that you mention it, my Wal Pro fretless also had the strings touching the wood behind the nut. It was eating the wood too much (each time you tune it eats a little bit more of the wood) so I had a luthier file it down a bit. Now it's not touching the wood anymore. There is no sonic difference. My other fretless Wal (Mk1) doesn't have the string touching the wood behind the nut.

 

[BassicJazzy]

To create a break angle over the nut. Compared to a fretted instrument, if the slot heights are minimised to a few 1/1000ths of an inch and the board is at the same level both sides of the nut (as they are with all 'nut in a slot' designs), any 'fall-away' in the slot will place the back edge of the slot at or below the level of the board. This means the string is not seated in the slot but resting only between the front edge and the end of the board where it falls away into the headstock. Putting in a groove ensures the string is seated properly in the nut.
To illustrate the point, the angles here are exaggerated and not to scale:
View attachment 7475512

Thank you. Yes, that last picture is about what I have now on the E string, perhaps 75% of that gap from the board. I'm going to take your suggestion and order a fret file, and work down the fret and the wood behind it a little bit. Since the adjust-a-nut is already at the bottom if I go a little low I can always raise it.

 

[SteveCS]

Thank you. Yes, that last picture is about what I have now on the E string, perhaps 75% of that gap from the board. I'm going to take your suggestion and order a fret file, and work down the fret and the wood behind it a little bit. Since the adjust-a-nut is already at the bottom if I go a little low I can always raise it.

I had to modify my Warwick "Just-a-Nut" to get it lower, but I did so without touching the string slots. I simply sanded the flat underside of the top section, and also reduced the height of the location pins. Probably took 0.5mm off of the bottom of the main block and from each pin, which was enough to get it to where I wanted it:

I think the Sadowsky nut is a slightly different design in that there is a single locating tongue/groove through the middle, but the principle should be the same. I would definitely advise against messing with the slots and their relative positions/depths unless you have to. YMMV

 

[iqi616]

I had to modify my Warwick "Just-a-Nut" to get it lower, but I did so without touching the string slots. I simply sanded the flat underside of the top section, and also reduced the height of the location pins. Probably took 0.5mm off of the bottom of the main block and from each pin, which was enough to get it to where I wanted it:
View attachment 7475570

Hmm. I'd not thought of sanding. Mine is as low as it will go without the screws being so loose that they'll fall out.

 

[BassicJazzy]

I had to modify my Warwick "Just-a-Nut" to get it lower, but I did so without touching the string slots. I simply sanded the flat underside of the top section, and also reduced the height of the location pins. Probably took 0.5mm off of the bottom of the main block and from each pin, which was enough to get it to where I wanted it:
View attachment 7475570

I think the Sadowsky nut is a slightly different design in that there is a single locating tongue/groove through the middle, but the principle should be the same. I would definitely advise against messing with the slots and their relative positions/depths unless you have to. YMMV

Thank you, that is a good idea. I don't like the idea of filing the slot either, even though my User's Manual says that's Ok to do. Can you recommend a tool for filing the wood behind nut at headstock? I've looked on Amazon, but I really don't know what I am looking for. I don't want to over file or remove too much.

 

[SteveCS]

Thank you, that is a good idea. I don't like the idea of filing the slot either, even though my User's Manual says that's Ok to do. Can you recommend a tool for filing the wood behind nut at headstock? I've looked on Amazon, but I really don't know what I am looking for. I don't want to over file or remove too much.

Any small round needle file of similar diameter to the respective strings will do.

 

[SteveCS]

Hmm. I'd not thought of sanding. Mine is as low as it will go without the screws being so loose that they'll fall out.

Yes, so was mine - just resting on the base plate with the screws 'nipped' just enough to keep them from getting lost!

 

[BassicJazzy]

Just an update here, since it's been a month now. I decided not to mess with my nut and also left my strings where they were, didn't. lower the saddles. I did have to adjust the G saddle a bit to clear a slightly sharp octave on that string, but now I'm leaving everything as is.

With the set-up the way it is now, the Sadowsky has lots less mwah than my Ibanez SR but the tone and clarity are excellent. Takes slightly more effort to play due to the tension of the Chromes and slightly high set-up, but I've gotten used to it. Really a beautiful instrument.

 

[BassicJazzy]

Well, it only took a day for me to change my mind and do a complete set-up on the Sadowsky. I just caved. Thought "why not make it better, easier on my fingers?" Multiple iterations until I got things where I wanted, and it now plays very smoothly and with minimal effort. First couple iterations had no buzz but were just too low, or had no radius in middle strings and felt weird. Final iteration is perfect, only requires light touch but enough so you don't get errors or lose tone, and doesn't generate unwanted mwah. Here's what it looks like now.

 

[Watchootognbout]

There's one advantage of having lines.
The lines real help when you are playing up in the "Ionosphere"

 

[bucephylus]

One of the eternal TB peter measuring debates. The audience doesn't care. They absolutely do care, at least in a subliminal way, about your intonation.

For those advocating never "looking" at reference marks on a fretless bass guitar and therefore having zero marks on the instrument: by all means please post vids of your performances for all of us to appreciate. I have seen it done by a blind player; so, yes, it is possible.

FWIW, I have played upright in orchestras for the past 50 years +/-, and wouldn't even think about trying to play fretless bass guitar based on muscle memory alone. I have other matters to attend to in my practice time. YMMV.

 

[BassicJazzy]

One of the eternal TB peter measuring debates. The audience doesn't care. They absolutely do care, at least in a subliminal way, about your intonation.

For those advocating never "looking" at reference marks on a fretless bass guitar and therefore having zero marks on the instrument: by all means please post vids of your performances for all of us to appreciate. I have seen it done by a blind player; so, yes, it is possible.

I have other matters to attend to in my practice time. YMMV.

Play fast, do not hang on bad notes, which you will hit from time to time. And when you do, definitely do not stop playing, do not drop the bass, do not cry.

 

[bucephylus]

Play fast, do not hang on bad notes, which you will hit from time to time. And when you do, definitely do not stop playing, do not drop the bass, do not cry.

Thanks, but, I have less than zero interest in this. I'd rather spend time on my upright technique. As I stated, the audience doesn't care about this aspect of fretless bass performance; so, why should I?

Furthermore, I've been gigging this fretless these past 12 or so years; and have zero inclination to modify it or flip it based on cosmetics.

 

[BassicJazzy]

Thanks, but, I have less than zero interest in this. I'd rather spend time on my upright technique. As I stated, the audience doesn't care about this aspect of fretless bass performance; so, why should I?

Furthermore, I've been gigging this fretless these past 12 or so years; and have zero inclination to modify it or flip it based on cosmetics.
View attachment 7498382

I want that bass, but in a 4.

 

[Benko]

Thanks, but, I have less than zero interest in this. I'd rather spend time on my upright technique. As I stated, the audience doesn't care about this aspect of fretless bass performance; so, why should I?

Furthermore, I've been gigging this fretless these past 12 or so years; and have zero inclination to modify it or flip it based on cosmetics.
View attachment 7498382

BEAUTIFUL! Zon fretless are the best!