Playing with really good guitarists

[Davbassdude]

Thank you for posting/sharing your experience. I've been playing for a really long time and have played with what I considered some truly amazing guitarists. What is especially encouraging is that perhaps the fact I rarely use effects, but usually try to alter my style of playing (technique) to achieve a particular sound, may actually be okay.

 

[dreamadream99]

I think this is a testament to the power of playing with better musicians in general. Not a huge gap, mind you—they won’t tolerate you for long if you are miles below them, but if you are close...

I once had the pleasure of playing with a big band on an album recording. It was a weekend intensive. We spent all day Saturday rehearsing the 12 charts, and all day Sunday recording them. The band was composed of professional jazz players from across the U.S., and while I was a professional level trombonist at the time, I was only a passable bassist, technique-wise. To this day, I attribute that session with advancing my chops by more leaps and bounds than anything before or since.

To this day, I will always avail myself of the opportunity to play with better musicians, because I know firsthand the benefits.

 

[Fab Superlative]

I'm wondering if this is an isolated case or if others have been in a similar situation and noticed.

"Being a songwriter is like being a Nun: You're married to a mystery" ~Leonard Cohen~ et;al.

 

[QORC]

the hardest part with having played with some exceptional guitarists? I'm so intolerant of the mediocre ones and the posers now. The difference is too glaring.

 

[Mister Boh]

Thanks for sharing OP. Sounds like a really cool experience. Its way too easy to go down the gear rabbit hole for guitar or bass. I dont play with bass effects, have one bass, one amp, but have a sizeable guitar pedalboard, three guitars and three guitar amps. Once in a while I will just plug straight into an amp and marvel at how good it sounds.

Playing with better musicians than me has always been a positive experience too. What's great about the bass is it doesn't have to be flashy to be excellent.

 

[3Liter]

I don't have a lot of pedals...well I have a few and I need to learn how to better work them . I played mostly acoustic for a long time so I have a good sense of what I can make that instrument do.

I played a jam with a couple buddies yesterday. Drummer over plays and rushes and bass player sings and plays a pretty solid ryhthm but not as special as I once thought he was. Another guitar player joined us. He could play a million notes and has great dexterity. He knew some of the songs but just jumped in where he could. I was somewhat in awe of how fluid he could be and all the notes he brought with his presentation.

When i listened back to the recordings I was alittle less impressed. I need to work on my use of distortion a little more. I don't use it enough and I probably could. And I would like to increase my single note count and less on chords...more of a mix...but this other fellow jammed so many notes in there, it didn't always need it. He was an impressive bedroom player (supposedly hadn't played with bands...and he's like 50+) but not as good at being a "bandmate" (this was just a jam of course). That got me thinking....I'll never be the player I want to be, but I can work on being a good mate. Listening, arranging, space.... I like Bluesville on XM and some of the more modern stuff is all guitar wanking the whole time. Even at the pro levels...

 

[Bander]

Thanks for sharing. Maybe they were getting two things right. First, there has to be space, and most folks don't get that. They think they have to play something all the time, and unaware they are stepping on the sonic space of others, especially with two guitars. Its amazing how much better (and less loud) a band sounds with the right material and restraint. A lot of effects and tone that normally get washed out, come alive on guitar when the others just back off, and let it happen. Second, sounds like they were a team, working to compliment each other - the great guitar duo's (or other duos for that matter), spent some time starting-stopping to get assignments down, and composing for net value. That's pretty rare - unless its was a prepared piece already recorded that way. Glad you got to be a part of a cool experience.

 

[brianrost]

Great post!

I've also been lucky enough to work locally alongside pros with long resumes, many of whom I had listened to on records for years before I met them. The most important lesson to me is their no-BS attitude and total focus on the music.

I hope everyone here will someday have that experience.

 

[el murdoque]

Seasoned pros are usually the best and easiest musicians to work with, in every aspect.

I know players (from a FOH perspective) that can rig up a two or three amp setup with stereo FX and a large pedalboard, but are totally cool with it if that's not what the FOH wants / can handle. They'll just rig a small combo and maybe a minimalistic fx board and will still sound incredible.

Seasoned pros usually know that while ego is a fine thing for a frontman during a show, it still is more important that the whole band sounds good. I had the luck of playing with a few of these guys when I was young and they just adjusted to my level, seamlessly and without effort. None would show off mad skills apart from the solo parts. I've also had people who were technically on the same level, but just arrived there. They needed needed to show off constantly, basically ruining everything by making the whole thing sound like a pro guitard is stuck with an amateur band that can't keep up.

Those usually are the ones that bring a huge pedalboard to a show and use two amps turned well beyond what the FOH level should have been (because the amps won't sound good enough without tube saturation and 412 is the smallest cab he has) and getting frustrated because the FOH guy cannot mix the sound he is used from the practice room.

 

[gjohnson441496]

Thanks for posting your story. I really enjoyed it.

 

[BassFiesta]

Great, now I feel guilty for using pedals …

But a very inspiring story.

 

[PotsdamBass8]

Bear with me here...

Last summer I stumbled into a project with some players who were very successful in the 80's, playing with and writing grammy nominated gold-record songs for a who's-who of talent in what would now be considered Classic Rock. There are even MTV videos.

Pros and Tone: In our very first informal jam, the guitarist was playing a Strat through a tiny Roland car battery amp, no effects other than an on-board delay. I was absolutely gobsmacked with the different tones she was able to get, just with technique. She has a pedalboard for gigs, but it's kind of a set-it-and-forget-it type situation.

Fast forward to yesterday, and we played for about 4 hours with the lead guitarist/founder of another big group from the late 70's/80's that is touring again (I listened to this group to the point of annoyance in High School so it was quite the thrill). He played a little Soldano amp our guitarist had sitting around, and his pedals consisted of a Boss Chorus Ensemble and a tuner, with some grit on the amp. Period. Again, he was getting all these wildly different tones without really changing any settings other than on the guitar. Our guitarist was on the Roland and doing the same thing. I have never been a huge fan of Les Paul tones in general, but without all the effects, I could really hear the nuances of it and it was truly eye opening. This is all at a pretty low volume as well (muted drums).

Previous bands and Tone: Before this, I was in a procession of local bands from Country to Classic Rock covers to some originals. 99% of the guitarists I played with had pedalboards with at least 10 effects in them, but all close to $1000 worth of pedals. Every guitar and every song sounded the exact same. In some cases, the guitarist actually missed half his solo because he was trying to get the right pedals on and off.

Pros and Writing: We were arranging and rehearsing some songs they had written together in the early 80's before the demise of their band, so I got a front row seat at their process of arranging (I shut my mouth and watched/learned). What I found interesting is that their focus was on what each was playing in regard to how it sounded with the other guitar part. Once riff would inspire another, which would inspire another and I could hear them molding the song into shape. They knew pretty quickly when they got off track or went down a rabbit hole and would stop, sometimes going back to close to what they had originally. But it just sounded right because they figured it out to be best for both guitars. WHile they requested certain things from bass and drums, it was neither an order nor a wishy-washy request. Always very supportive.

Previous bands and writing: Guitarist - "I'm playing this. Play whatever you want." End of arranging. Or when helping to write a song "I think this sounds better". End of writing input.

The only commonality is that neither guitarist I'm with now, nor the previous band ones can read or write music. While the Pros certainly know chords structures and keys and things like that, it's all ear and feel. It's a constant learning process as opposed to learning a song one way and never changing it.

Sorry for the long blather, but this experience has really been an eye-opener for me and I had to get it out. I'm wondering if this is an isolated case or if others have been in a similar situation and noticed. Gotta say, it has taken my playing and approach to a different place. I've never been as relaxed on stage as I am with this band. Maybe it's because I don't have to worry about they're doing?

That's awesome! In regards to tone, I've played with some very good guitarists, but one guy that I've been fortunate enough to play with and hear play a bunch of times, just has this incredible tone. He just uses an old tubescreamer into a musicman combo, and he sounds great. Yes I'm sure it's great equipment, but you can hear incredible detail in what he's playing that is not just coming from having good gear. The second guitarist that you describe reminds me of that.

I think tone from the player is often overlooked. Yes, you hear people talk about "tone comes from your hands" all the time, but a lot of people just don't believe it or think it's only a small part of the equation. Both picking and fingerstyle, the way you play has so much more to do with your sound on guitar or bass than the gear does. Want to sound like so-and-so? Practice without an amp and make your instrument sound as close as you can to what you want ACOUSTICALLY, then plug it in and twiddle the knobs.

 

[IamGroot]

Working with great musicians recharges my music batteries. The music just happens and if somebody wants to change things up (different arrangement, key, style)no biggie, the music stll flows from the tap. They cn change on a dime and come up with new part.
Btw, great musicians come in many flavors including drummers and keys.

 

[3Liter]

Great, now I feel guilty for using pedals …

I don't. You can't get your hands to play a nice slap back delay.

That's awesome! In regards to tone, I've played with some very good guitarists, but one guy that I've been fortunate enough to play with and hear play a bunch of times, just has this incredible tone. He just uses an old tubescreamer into a musicman combo, and he sounds great. Yes I'm sure it's great equipment, but you can hear incredible detail in what he's playing that is not just coming from having good gear. The second guitarist that you describe reminds me of that.

I think tone from the player is often overlooked. Yes, you hear people talk about "tone comes from your hands" all the time, but a lot of people just don't believe it or think it's only a small part of the equation. Both picking and fingerstyle, the way you play has so much more to do with your sound on guitar or bass than the gear does. Want to sound like so-and-so? Practice without an amp and make your instrument sound as close as you can to what you want ACOUSTICALLY, then plug it in and twiddle the knobs.

There's a local guy near me that plays and fills in on an open mic stage. Very nice guys, very humble. Plays a Telecaster straight into an amp that he turns away from the stage since it's pretty cranked. Plays some amazing stuff. But, I realized after listening to him fill in with everyone one night, it'd be cool if he had a different sound occasionally...like a nice Marshall overdrive or some real dirt.

I'm still on my quest to be understand all my gear and how best to use it. (And play the right notes 80% of the time!) But sometimes you need a different sound to get inspired.



Another story....I did play with a local guy on an OM stage. He is a pro in one of the military bands (or maybe retired). We played some simple stuff (my pick) and he literally vomited notes all over the place. In retrospect, I was surprised that a pro would need to overplay so much.

 

[PotsdamBass8]

I don't. You can't get your hands to play a nice slap back delay.





There's a local guy near me that plays and fills in on an open mic stage. Very nice guys, very humble. Plays a Telecaster straight into an amp that he turns away from the stage since it's pretty cranked. Plays some amazing stuff. But, I realized after listening to him fill in with everyone one night, it'd be cool if he had a different sound occasionally...like a nice Marshall overdrive or some real dirt.

I'm still on my quest to be understand all my gear and how best to use it. (And play the right notes 80% of the time!) But sometimes you need a different sound to get inspired.



Another story....I did play with a local guy on an OM stage. He is a pro in one of the military bands (or maybe retired). We played some simple stuff (my pick) and he literally vomited notes all over the place. In retrospect, I was surprised that a pro would need to overplay so much.

Yeah, I get what you mean about needing different sounds. He has a nice range of clean to pretty dirty rock tones if needed, but it all sounds like a variation on the same kind of voice. I guess it's kind of like how someone can play a P into an amp and make it fit for many different styles simply by varying the tone knob and the playing style, but it's not going to sound as drastically different as a stingray with a B7K or a semi-hollow. I guess the ultimate would be a player who has multiple instruments/amps/effects yet has also mastered how to play with each of them to optimize the tone they are going for.

 

[delta7fred]

Good guitarists are a real pleasure to play with.

I attend an open mic night were there are a couple of really good guitarists, one a retired session/pit orchestra/film score guitarist who has toured the world. The other is semi retired but still gigs occasionally singing and playing mostly jazz.

They always ask me up (to play EUB) despite the fact that my intonation is nowhere near good enough (IMO), my theory is sadly lacking, and at times I am struggling to follow them especially when the get off piste. Great fun all the same.

 

[NetRngr]

Bear with me here...

Last summer I stumbled into a project with some players who were very successful in the 80's, playing with and writing grammy nominated gold-record songs for a who's-who of talent in what would now be considered Classic Rock. There are even MTV videos.

Pros and Tone: In our very first informal jam, the guitarist was playing a Strat through a tiny Roland car battery amp, no effects other than an on-board delay. I was absolutely gobsmacked with the different tones she was able to get, just with technique. She has a pedalboard for gigs, but it's kind of a set-it-and-forget-it type situation.

Fast forward to yesterday, and we played for about 4 hours with the lead guitarist/founder of another big group from the late 70's/80's that is touring again (I listened to this group to the point of annoyance in High School so it was quite the thrill). He played a little Soldano amp our guitarist had sitting around, and his pedals consisted of a Boss Chorus Ensemble and a tuner, with some grit on the amp. Period. Again, he was getting all these wildly different tones without really changing any settings other than on the guitar. Our guitarist was on the Roland and doing the same thing. I have never been a huge fan of Les Paul tones in general, but without all the effects, I could really hear the nuances of it and it was truly eye opening. This is all at a pretty low volume as well (muted drums).

Previous bands and Tone: Before this, I was in a procession of local bands from Country to Classic Rock covers to some originals. 99% of the guitarists I played with had pedalboards with at least 10 effects in them, but all close to $1000 worth of pedals. Every guitar and every song sounded the exact same. In some cases, the guitarist actually missed half his solo because he was trying to get the right pedals on and off.

Pros and Writing: We were arranging and rehearsing some songs they had written together in the early 80's before the demise of their band, so I got a front row seat at their process of arranging (I shut my mouth and watched/learned). What I found interesting is that their focus was on what each was playing in regard to how it sounded with the other guitar part. Once riff would inspire another, which would inspire another and I could hear them molding the song into shape. They knew pretty quickly when they got off track or went down a rabbit hole and would stop, sometimes going back to close to what they had originally. But it just sounded right because they figured it out to be best for both guitars. WHile they requested certain things from bass and drums, it was neither an order nor a wishy-washy request. Always very supportive.

Previous bands and writing: Guitarist - "I'm playing this. Play whatever you want." End of arranging. Or when helping to write a song "I think this sounds better". End of writing input.

The only commonality is that neither guitarist I'm with now, nor the previous band ones can read or write music. While the Pros certainly know chords structures and keys and things like that, it's all ear and feel. It's a constant learning process as opposed to learning a song one way and never changing it.

Sorry for the long blather, but this experience has really been an eye-opener for me and I had to get it out. I'm wondering if this is an isolated case or if others have been in a similar situation and noticed. Gotta say, it has taken my playing and approach to a different place. I've never been as relaxed on stage as I am with this band. Maybe it's because I don't have to worry about they're doing?

Could simply be the difference between true professionals and amateurs. I dont mean that to be a condescending statement but musicians who have made their living for decades playing and writing music are usually pretty good at it.
I have also found that a great many musicians play more by ear and cant read/write musical notation. I learned to read write musical notation in Jr high band but never use it and have lost a lot of that knowledge because I dont. Come to think of it I need to relearn that even though I go more on what sounds good over what in theory is supposed to sound good.
I always jump at the chance to play with more accomplished musicians whenever I get the chance if for no other reason than to pick up new stuff. I have learned a great deal from one old guy in particular who can barely play for any extended time due to age but when he thumps the bass he can make it sing. Hats off to ya Mr. Charlie.

 

[honeyiscool]

I am a lead guitarist in multiple bands and my bass project is basically in hiatus. And on guitar, I love to own the stage and play as big and fast as I can when it’s a fast song and it’s solo time. My guitars have bright look-at-me colors and I move and jump around a lot. I have pride in my abilities and I want everyone to go home remembering me as a really good guitarist.

Which is why when the lights aren’t on me, I don’t overplay, and I’m not very loud. It doesn’t reflect on my abilities positively to be a poor musician and step all over the song when it doesn’t need to be stepped over. That’s the beauty of lead guitar anyway. You can barely play all night and have two huge solos and people think you carried the night when, in fact, you are just the cherry on top. Sometimes not playing anything at all is a big part of being a lead guitarist.

 

[3Liter]

@honeyiscool what are you doing when you're "not playing". Holding the neck, muting out, hiding in the shadows until your moment? I have no idea what kind of bands you're in, but I'm curious what your strategy is? Tasty fills are always nice or some arpeggios.

I auditioned for a band with a decent lead player as the rhythm player and he basically showed me up the whole time that he could play the parts I was supposed to play. In effect doubling them when it wasn't his turn. Why they needed a rhythm player I don't know.

 

[honeyiscool]

@honeyiscool what are you doing when you're "not playing". Holding the neck, muting out, hiding in the shadows until your moment? I have no idea what kind of bands you're in, but I'm curious what your strategy is? Tasty fills are always nice or some arpeggios.

I auditioned for a band with a decent lead player as the rhythm player and he basically showed me up the whole time that he could play the parts I was supposed to play. In effect doubling them when it wasn't his turn. Why they needed a rhythm player I don't know.

I mean, what do singers without an instrument do when the band is playing? You look engaged, you move around to the music, you look like you are having a good time, just look happy to be there? I have a feeling some guitarists can't stop playing because they're nervous and don't really know what to do on stage unless they're playing.