PLEK fretted-to-fretless conversion

[kumimajava]

I know that it's not the "advised way" to do fretted -> fretless conversions by "grinding down the frets... but since a PLEK machine is able to both grind frets, and profile fingerboards...

... is there a good reason why this couldn't be done, all in one go?

Would love to hear from anyone who has extensive PLEK experience

 

[Turnaround]

It is a bad idea to grind down the frets, PLEK or not. The fretboard will continue to react to humidity changes, and when it does what’s left of the frets will protrude or recede below the fretboard. In either case you will get buzzy strings.

 

[walterw]

yeah, play it for a few years and the wood will wear away and the fret tangs won't, now you have "frets" again.

plus that's a whole lot of grinding, it's way more work than just pulling the frets and gluing in wood strips before leveling the board.

 

[kumimajava]

Thanks for the responses.

Perhaps I should have mentioned that that in this case, the fingerboard would be synthetic (dymondwood/rockwood/phenolic/ebonol/etc), so not responsive to moisture. The dymondwood fretless fingerboards i've had, show minimal wear after 10+ years of playing, so not sure they would quickly deteriorate.

I'm familiar with de-fretting wooden fingerboards, but not sure how much damage would be done to the surface from defretting, hence the thought. And again - if it were done by PLEK, then the amoung of (manual) grinding wouldn't be a problem. Hence wondering whether in fact it would be less hassle to have the PLEK machine do it automatically - fingerboard needs to be levelled afterwards anyway...

Any comments welcome!

 

[Killing Floor]

A fretted bass as it ages, if it's played a lot can show wear in the spaces on the fingerboard. The best thing to do is have the fingerboard properly leveled. Not sure if that's the correct term, someone yell at me so I can learn. If it's a newer bass without any significant wear it might be a less risky idea. But still better and probably a lot less cost to pull them and fill the grooves.

 

[walterw]

And again - if it were done by PLEK, then the amoung of (manual) grinding wouldn't be a problem.

i don't think that's how the machine works. the cutter has a saddle-shaped groove to ride over an individual fret and lower it by the programmed amount while leaving the same "fret-shaped" profile afterwards.

i don't think a precision machine like that is designed to buzz the entire fret away down to the wood.

 

[kumimajava]

i don't think that's how the machine works. the cutter has a saddle-shaped groove to ride over an individual fret and lower it by the programmed amount while leaving the same "fret-shaped" profile afterwards.

i don't think a precision machine like that is designed to buzz the entire fret away down to the wood.

Thanks - I wasn't sure that the "leveling" wheel is necessarily concave.

From what I've heard, the PLEK does also profile fretless fingerboards, so I was wondering whether it may be able to do that "despite" the frets - i.e. just "profile the fretless fingerboard" as if the frets simply weren't there & chop them off in the process.

Also realized - I probably should have posted this under the "luthier's forum", rather than here - since it is perhaps beyond what falls under "setup & repair"

 

[202dy]

Also realized - I probably should have posted this under the "luthier's forum", rather than here - since it is perhaps beyond what falls under "setup & repair"

Not so. It is exactly the kind of thing the pro's here do.

By the way, most professional builders don't do repair work. And while some guys post on both forums, defretting and resurfacing is definitely repair work.

 

[Arie X]

were this my plek machine i would charge you 5x the going rate (a punitive quote) because to do this would consume 5 other instruments worth of time, set-up, programming, wheel changing, and clean up -and it's just a bad idea. besides "just chopping them off" via. grinding, abrasive metal removal generates a ton of heat which your instrument will not like at all.

 

[Bruce Johnson]

I agree with Arie X;

I seriously doubt that you'd find anyone with a PLEK machine who'd be willing to use it for grinding frets down to the tangs. The grinding wheels that a PLEK machine uses are fine grit and pre-dressed to a crown (slight concave) shape. They are designed to take light trim passes on the tops of the frets, leaving a crowned top with a fine finish. You definitely wouldn't want to use that wheel to grind the frets down to the tangs. Do they have a separate coarse grit flat grinding wheel to put on there? Maybe, but I doubt it. What would they use it for? The PLEK is light duty, low power, precision CNC machine. It's not made for hogging off metal.

When they cut a fingerboard surface, they change from the crown grinding wheel to some kind of HSS wheel cutter, probably with spiral teeth. An expensive cutter, made to trim a tiny amount of wood in a very smooth finish. No way would they use that to hog through metal frets.

And of course, the whole idea of grinding the frets off, leaving the tangs down in the slots, is a bad idea for a lot of reasons. Any shop sophisticated enough to invest in a PLEK machine would know that.

If they agreed to defret your neck, they would pull the frets out, fill the slots with something solid, and basically shape the fingerboard surface with hand blocks. Then, they might put it in the PLEK machine for a final touch-up of the fingerboard surface.

 

[kumimajava]

. besides "just chopping them off" via. grinding, abrasive metal removal generates a ton of heat which your instrument will not like at all.

When they cut a fingerboard surface, they change from the crown grinding wheel to some kind of HSS wheel cutter, probably with spiral teeth. An expensive cutter, made to trim a tiny amount of wood in a very smooth finish. No way would they use that to hog through metal frets.

Thank you both - this is exactly the kind of information I was wanting to find out, and really grateful that you took the time to write back & explain to me Now I know a lot more than a few messages ago

Next step is to find out how much of a challenge it would be to de-fret phenowood/rockwood/ebonol... Expect there is more info on that on the foum already

Thanks again!

 

[12BitSlab]

Merely mount on a plaque the plek’d frets after they’ve been plucked. A plek is not applicable.

 

[Bruce Johnson]

Next step is to find out how much of a challenge it would be to de-fret phenowood/rockwood/ebonol... Expect there is more info on that on the foum already

I've never had the call to de-fret a phenolic/Richlite/Ebanol fingerboard, but I've made up a few new ones for customers. That is, I've machined, slotted, polished, and fretted them. De-fretting a phenolic fingerboard would be about the same process as a wood fingerboard. Use careful technique when pulling the frets to minimize chipping. Fill the slots with plastic strips and a good hardening plastic glue or epoxy. Then true up the surface and polish it. No need for any coating on the surface.

 

[kumimajava]

I've never had the call to de-fret a phenolic/Richlite/Ebanol fingerboard, but I've made up a few new ones for customers. That is, I've machined, slotted, polished, and fretted them. De-fretting a phenolic fingerboard would be about the same process as a wood fingerboard. Use careful technique when pulling the frets to minimize chipping. Fill the slots with plastic strips and a good hardening plastic glue or epoxy. Then true up the surface and polish it. No need for any coating on the surface.

Thanks, Bruce - that's good to know. I've done a few de-frets on rosewood & pau-ferro, following exactly the process you mentioned (used plastic strips, too ). So it's good to know that the phenolics/ebonol should behave sufficiently similarly to not need anything drastically different

 

[walterw]

Merely mount on a plaque the plek’d frets after they’ve been plucked. A plek is not applicable.

 

[davidjudd2]

If I was doing what you are asking, I would file the frets down flush to the fingerboard before putting it on the plek(done that, it's a lot of work). The plek uses a diamond end mill to surface the fingerboard and most likely would break if you tried to surface the whole fret down. But I think it would be fine otherwise. But also if it was me, I would pull the frets and fill the slots. That's all I have to say.

 

[Arie X]

If I was doing what you are asking, I would file the frets down flush to the fingerboard before putting it on the plek(done that, it's a lot of work). The plek uses a diamond end mill to surface the fingerboard and most likely would break if you tried to surface the whole fret down. But I think it would be fine otherwise. But also if it was me, I would pull the frets and fill the slots. That's all I have to say.

only if you have the HFS milling module. to add there are no diamond endmills. there are coated tools "diamond like coatings", single flute and two flute brazed on pcd inserts -tools with poor geometry for engaging metal ime, and plated tools (fine diamond particles imbedded in a bonding matrix like nickel). solid industrial diamond fairs extremely poorly with machining shock, vibration, etc.. and require a very high degree of machine and workpiece stability not found on a plek. primary applications are with abrasive plastics, advanced composites, pcb's, and non-ferrous metals like copper and aluminum. it also tends to bond with carbon to the rapid determine of the tool during machining contact with ferrous materials.

 

[davidjudd2]

Well, you obviously know your stuff. I'm just going off the experience I have with the Plek we have here. I've plowed through 3/8" diameter brass inlays with no problem. Granted I only took off maybe .010".

 

[ZedLepp]

I have a bass that the frets were ground down to make a fretless.
There is a buzz sound when you pass over the fret. It sounds bad. I mean BAD.
I really, really, really wish that this wasn't done. Now I can't get the tags out without damaging the fret board.

 

[Arie X]

I have a bass that the frets were ground down to make a fretless.
There is a buzz sound when you pass over the fret. It sounds bad. I mean BAD.
I really, really, really wish that this wasn't done. Now I can't get the tags out without damaging the fret board.

eww.. that sounds bad. if the board isn't bound, one could could clear out the fret edge (sometimes a burn in stick is used to hide this) and get some purchase with a pointy tool to tap out a grab-able portion of the fret and remove via the usual method. if the fret end is covered with finish or the board is bound, then unfortunately that spot of finish has to be cut into or in the case of a bound neck, the binding has to come off. kinda depends on the exact situation though.