Double Bass Plywood Basses?

[drurb]

Ignorance is bliss, perhaps? No basis for comparison, since they've never had the two choices side by side long enough for a carved instrument to open up? Finally getting something that they wanted for a long time and posting during their initial excitement instead of waiting for a couple of years when the instrument's good and bad points have had time to show up? Being an arco neophyte or a total pizz. player and not ever hearing that difference? Experiencing the rewarding feeling of inclusion in a socially accepted herd mentality that prevails on a web forum? Any guesses any one else wants to venture? As you can see, I am totally open to suggestion.

Well, that's just a bit too cynical for me. I have never played a Cleveland so I will refrain from commenting. You mentioned the Hawkes as well. Those Upton hybrids figuratively wipe the floor with lower end carved basses. I say that and I am not ignorant, I have many bases for comparison, I've heard side-by-side comparisons, I've heard carved basses that have aged, I've heard the basses in question after they, too, have aged, I am not an arco neophyte, I can hear the difference, and it has nothing to do with herd mentality. Rather, I think folks are that happy and enthusiastic about the Clevelands and the Hawkes (now just called Uptons) because they really are special. Have you played either? By the way, if anything is herd mentality, it is holding that one has to have a fully-carved, regardless of quality. I trust that is not actually your position.

 

[drurb]

I have a carved freak too, in that case, but I have steel Helicores on it. So maybe the plywood stability thing is a myth. Or maybe some makers of carved basses use wood that is stabilized and aged properly and a little thicker in dimension and others are in a hurry to market some thin but more immediately resonant flamed grain that could have used a few more years in the shed and should have started life with a couple mm more in graduation. I say maybe because if I said for sure, someone would ask for statistical scientific proof and there you go. No useful information would come from that. Just a useless debate over some unknowns.

There are poorly made basses in every category. Perhaps the durability you have experienced is because your fully-carved was intentionally left a bit thicker than what is optimal to achieve the best sound. That may be a very worthwhile tradeoff for you in terms of durability and may very well yield a bass that sounds better than many "high-end" plys. My point is that hybrids or fully-carved basses that are less impervious to the elements than is your bass are not, necessarily, poorly made at all.

Atlanta sits on a line between the piedmont and the Blue Ridge. Eastern Continental Divide runs right through the middle of the city less than a mile from my house. That makes for some highly variable and suddenly changeable weather. As for my DB, I don't even need adjusters in the bridge and this thing gets a heck of a lot of humidity and temp variation in just one day;- enough that the tuning can be a whole step up or down. Compare that to the supposedly more stable laminated-ribs hybrid that I had for try out over a weekend. One little hiccough in the weather and the paper thin flamed veneer was blistering all over at the seams.

Again-- there are poorly made basses in every category.

If one keeps repeating the misinformation often enough for long enough, it is soon taken for fact. People buy a bass and equip it with adjusters without even waiting for one year of seasonal change. They buy the ply without trying a carved bass because the "prevailing talk is ...". And not too many who like to see fancy grain will admit that straight grain is structurally superior.

I'm inclined to agree about plys-- but hybrids? I don't agree there.

I guess if I were a control freak I'd start my own thread on my bass. But it's plain maple ribs and back, and thick top have been "flamed" to often in other threads already. If it were my thread I could make sure it didn't get deleted like the other ones. But you give someone else the control and you get to see how they use it. On an internet forum, that is useful information. "How" often is a clue to "why".

No one else's opinion about your bass can change the fact that you love it! Others are, however, entitled to their opinions.

Let a hint to the wise be sufficient. There are great carved instruments available at prices well below high end ply ("high-end plywood" is something I can't type with a straight face, let alone get a full rich arco sound from ). No they don't sound like 300 year old Italian basses carved from slab cut wood with knot holes in it;- yet. And some of these can take the weather, the knocks, the abuse, too.

Personally, I've yet to hear a "great" carved instrument that sells for substantially less than these "high-end" plys. I do agree, however, that there are great hybrids available in that price range.

 

[Peck_Time]

This has been an engrossing thread for me, as I am about a month away from taking delivery of a New Standard 'high-end plywood' oxymoron bass!

My current bass is a cheapish fully-carved flatback. It has a good set-up, is well made etc.

As a relative newcomer to the bass I like getting more experienced players to play it to gather their opinions. Unfortunately what happens is they play it and then hand it back in silence!

So... I have definitely been influenced by the 'ravings' of the happy Cleveland and La Scala ply owners. In fact, I would never have known about New Standards without this forum. I also would not have known about Euphonic Audio, miking basses, gut strings, Bob Gollihur, et al.

For me this forum has let me pick the brains of bassists who are actively striving to get better in every way.

 

[dchan]

I can't comment on the sound and whatnot, since I have never heard these basses ever in my life.

But if someone is willing to drop $4K and up on a plywood bass when there are a good number of decent hybrid and carved basses available for equal or less money, than they really must be that good.

I highly doubt that $4K will turn a bunch of bassists who value sound into a "herd".

Still, you gotta try out every bass before you buy.

 

[Marc Piane]

Personally, I've yet to hear a "great" carved instrument that sells for substantially less than these "high-end" plys. I do agree, however, that there are great hybrids available in that price range.

Let me start by saying I tried both these basses when I was shopping recently and they were in the running until the very end. Great basses. I am not really disagreeing with anything here. Just pointing out that there are some good entry level carved basses.

The current list price of the Cleveland ply is $4050. The LaScala is $4250.
The hybrid Cleveland is $5600 and the LaScala is $5800.

The bass I bought, the Shen Willow, lists at $4750. Definitely in the same range at when you take into consideration actual prices from a dealer they are almost the same. To my ear the Shen has a more complex sound. There are a number of other makers that are getting into the lower priced carved basses.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Ignorance is bliss, perhaps? No basis for comparison, since they've never had the two choices side by side long enough for a carved instrument to open up? Finally getting something that they wanted for a long time and posting during their initial excitement instead of waiting for a couple of years when the instrument's good and bad points have had time to show up? Being an arco neophyte or a total pizz. player and not ever hearing that difference? Experiencing the rewarding feeling of inclusion in a socially accepted herd mentality that prevails on a web forum? Any guesses any one else wants to venture? As you can see, I am totally open to suggestion.

Or, maybe the people who bought the higher end ply basses played them and really liked them. Have you ever played a New Standard laminate? Ever heard one in person? I had a decent fully carved bass in my office, on the thick/heavy side but sounded really good. It never cracked or split seams either. I sold it and chipped in an extra $1200 to replace it with the LaScala ply. "Herd mentality" or "ignorance" on my part? The truth is, I just like the NS better for what I was planning to use it for.

 

[drurb]

I can't comment on the sound and whatnot, since I have never heard these basses ever in my life.

But if someone is willing to drop $4K and up on a plywood bass when there are a good number of decent hybrid and carved basses available for equal or less money, than they really must be that good.

I highly doubt that $4K will turn a bunch of bassists who value sound into a "herd".

Still, you gotta try out every bass before you buy.

I agree with you but would like to add a detail. If an experienced bassist is willing to drop $4k on a plywood, then it is likely that such a bass is of high quality. That does not mean, necessarily, that even the buyer would judge its sound to be better than a hybrid or carved for equal or less money. In the case of the New Standards, many owners here have commented about its high quality combined with the durability and reliability of a ply. I believe plys really are more durable and can withstand temperature and humidity changes better than hybrids or carveds. Buyers of NS basses that have commented here have often pointed out that they need to use them in situations where more delicate instruments would be in jeopardy.

 

[drurb]

Let me start by saying I tried both these basses when I was shopping recently and they were in the running until the very end. Great basses. I am not really disagreeing with anything here. Just pointing out that there are some good entry level carved basses.

The current list price of the Cleveland ply is $4050. The LaScala is $4250.
The hybrid Cleveland is $5600 and the LaScala is $5800.

The bass I bought, the Shen Willow, lists at $4750. Definitely in the same range at when you take into consideration actual prices from a dealer they are almost the same. To my ear the Shen has a more complex sound. There are a number of other makers that are getting into the lower priced carved basses.

I agree completely. There are, indeed, many fine entry-level carved basses available. Let me clarify. When I said I have yet to hear a "great" carved bass that costs substantially less than one of the high-end plys, I meant just that. I was thinking of the prices you mentioned. So, taking the Cleveland at $4050, I've yet to hear a "great" carved bass that cost substantially less than that. Your Shen Willow, which many have reported to be a fine instrument, certainly does not cost less.

The entry-level carved basses about which I was thinking were those in the $2000-$3000 range. I have yet to hear one I would consider to be "great." In fact, every one I've heard and played has been inferior along a number of dimensions to the high-quality hybrids I've played.

 

[Marc Piane]

Cool drurb.

I should say that I borrowed a Cleveland ply when I was on the road and loved it. Big sound. Great bass. Bottom line, as many have said here, play as many basses as you can. Pick the one that speaks to you. Who cares what it's made out of.

 

[Uncletoad]

I'll say this one more time more clearly.

I didn't know anything about the Cleveland Bass when I first played one at Nick Lloyd's when he was working on my bass. I was not bass shopping, or even thinking about it. He just pointed to it and said try it, presumably to get me out of his face while he was working. I fell in love instantly.

He had a Willow there too. I played it. It was beautiful. Rich. I had a serious bias against plywood. I assumed that I would buy a carved bass whenever I was gonna buy another bass. I grilled him about plywood vs carved. He was very balanced and fair.

I coulda bought either one.

I bought the Cleveland.

I've never had one second of buyers remorse.

 

[coreybass]

As has been said in this thread already, there are many reasons to buy a plywood, hybrid, or fully carved bass and many great basses in each of those categories. It really depends on your playing situation and what you need it for. An orchestral player has different needs than someone in a rockabilly band. You wouldn't want an old Italian masterpiece in bluegrass band and probably wouldn't want to play an old kay in the New York Philharmonic.

I recently got an Upton Hawkes Laminate and am very happy with it. I chose the laminate because I wanted something durable to take on the road and couldn't be happier with the bass. It's set up great and the more I play it, the better it sounds and feels. I play a lot at outdoor festivals in the summer (I just got back from Merlefest) and fly a few times a month with my bass so the plywood made sense for me.

Jeremy Allen and I recently compared his Cleveland, my Upton and his old English bass side by side. The English bass, obviously, blew the doors off the plywood basses but I thought the Upton and Cleveland were comparable except that the Cleveland was noticably louder. At more than twice the price of the Upton, I see no reason to get a New Standard over an Upton if you are getting a plywood bass. That being said the Cleveland is a great bass and there are many happy owners out there. Rightly so since they have a great bass.

 

[peterpalmieri]

I think there is some really well made carved instruments in the $6500 - $9000 range at least in the Kolstein shop. I'd assume the carved LaScala and others also.

Everyone seems talk about nice carved instruments as 300 year old Italian instruments or a nice ply like the Cleveland or a cheap carved.

What about those in between again I only have personal experience with Kolstein basses but the Botti and Fendt are in that intermediate price range but play like great carved instruments?

Pete