Double Bass Plywood Basses?

[mrpc]

Why is there a big gap in our discussions?
Pete

I'd say that there is plenty of good discussion in the set up and repair section. That's the meat and potatoes, and that's where it seems some very knowledgable and generous luthiers post when the players post questions/problems.

I think the other question is, why would you feel there is a big gap here, and what is it?

 

[damonsmith]

In general I agree with this concept. I believe the Cleveland is an exception. Most people who play one feel that way. Have you tried one?

No, I have played some plywood basses that feel good and project well.
I am really into arco and extended techinques, so it is hard to like a plywood bass. The Czechease worked really well but there were times I could feel what it was.
Still, they are designed to make playing situations possible that were not before, and that is what it was doing so I was into it at the time.

 

[Jeremy Allen]

I am really into arco and extended techinques, so it is hard to like a plywood bass.

I feel like the bow is really the thing that separates the plywood from the carved. My NS Cleveland ply is a cannon, very loud and even, and I can play unamplified in situations where my expensive old carved bass gets lost. But apply the stick, and the Cleveland sounds boxy and self-contained, like the other plywoods I've owned, while the old carved bass makes you look around and go "holy cow, where's that sound coming from, the whole room is vibrating!"

Of course a difference is felt in the pizz response, too. But I recently made a recording of myself playing scales on a NS Cleveland ply, an Upton Hawkes ply, and my old carved bass (Corey DiMario was in town, and he brought his Upton over for a bass hang). The main thing that one can hear on the recording is that the Cleveland is the loudest of the three; and that it's hard to hear the difference between $1900 and $29,000 in an F major scale played pizz into a laptop.

 

[mrpc]

Interesting. What would be more important, the sound of the laptop recording, or the sound of the bass in the room?

 

[Jeremy Allen]

Interesting. What would be more important, the sound of the laptop recording, or the sound of the bass in the room?

Exactly. It's just my way of saying "don't bother to ask me to post these clips, because they won't tell you anything (although I thought they might when I made them)."

 

[drurb]

While I do understand why the difference would be more apparent for arco, I have always appreciated the tonal complexity of a carved top with pizz. Yes, there are plys that can sound louder than carved basses played pizz. but I never met a ply that had the tonal characteristics I seek for pizz. Still, I understand why, under some circumstances (especially considering practicality and playing conditions), a good ply can be the right choice.

 

[brooklynbassed]

Steve Brewster (The late H. Stevens Brewster, Principal Bassist, National Symphony Orchestra,) had a 3 basses, a sweet OLD italian instrument that was his main axe, a healthy old german or eatsern european bass, and a plywood bass that he kept in the corner for emergencies, like when a student didn't have a bass for a lesson, or both carved basses were in the shop, which I don't recall ever happening.
He affactionately called his plywood, "The Sailboat". His advice to me was to always keep a decent plywood around.

I have always had a decent plywood around for years. And, for all these years it has been my only bass. It's a german factory bass made in 1976. It has flown oversees. Had a successful claim filed on its behalf against baggage handlers at Heathrow for a busted soundpost. No problem, David Gage hooked me up. It also survived a careless fall after it fell while I was loading out from a show and talking to someone AT THE SAME TIME! Let's see, that fingerboard sheer was expertly repaired in College Park,MD by Bill Gailes, of the old Gailes Violin Shop, a National Symphony favorite. Most recently, Sprocket worked on the bass at Gage's, and gave me a righteous set-up, because he has one very similar to it by the same maker. So, now that I have paid virtually the same amount in repairs and upkeep (over the years), that I did when I bought the bass in the '80's. I dare not part with it. It is still a bit "stiff", but it's a plywood that sounds great and fools a few people ever so often into thinking it's a carved bass. Nope!

Did I say that one night on my way to rehearsal, just before a USIA Tour my metal GK MB amp gouged one of the ribs after I skidded to avoid an out of control car? Yes, it did.

Imagine that happening with a nice old carved bass.
Anyone reading this, who knew Steve Brewster can see the irony in the experience I just related to you.

I guess I will always have this bass, I'm glad to say. It's an
old friend and a good insurance policy. I am looking for a really
nice carved bass and recently played a beauty, but as another of my teachers and another good friend, Buster Williams, said to me recently: "That's a lifelong pursuit."


THAT SAYS IT ALL


In Loving Memory of Herbert Stevens Brewster.

 

[dchan]

While I do understand why the difference would be more apparent for arco, I have always appreciated the tonal complexity of a carved top with pizz. Yes, there are plys that can sound louder than carved basses played pizz. but I never met a ply that had the tonal characteristics I seek for pizz. Still, I understand why, under some circumstances (especially considering practicality and playing conditions), a good ply can be the right choice.

I second that. Right now, all I have on hand to compare are a Christopher 100-series plywood (that's the one with a laminated maple top) and a 1960's Juzek, fully carved. Neither of them are set up particularly well nor have pizzicato strings.

When I first heard the Chrissy, it had on D'Addario Helicors that looked orchestral, yet were horrendous under the bow. Under the fingers, they made the Chrissy super loud. Right now, they are less loud, being setup with Kolstein Varicore E, A, D and Flexocor G strings, and both are orchestral strings. Still, the bass is a somewhat louder than the Juzek.

However, the Juzek has this complex sound under the fingers that the Chrissy is missing. With the Chrissy, it's just notes going boom boom boom. With the Juzek, the sound is a ringing, complex sound that has strong hints of the wood on the bass itself. When you're playing the Juzek, you are playing the bass itself in a sense. With the Chrissy, on the other hand, you're playing the strings, and the bass is there only to project the sound.

This is only a comparison between two vastly different instruments though.

 

[dchan]

.......His advice to me was to always keep a decent plywood around. ......

Well, the Juzek I use doesn't really count as a nice bass in comparison to others, but it's nice enough for me right now.

That's why the Chrissy is my gigging bass. It's taken so many hits that would make me cringe if they happened to the Juzek. The Juzek has taken hits too, but not as many, and not as abusive. Of course, none of any of the impacts are at the level you describe.

The other reasons are that it's a ton lighter than the Juzek, it has a gig bag, and my pickup is on it.

 

[brooklynbassed]

Well, the Juzek I use doesn't really count as a nice bass in comparison to others, but it's nice enough for me right now.

That's why the Chrissy is my gigging bass. It's taken so many hits that would make me cringe if they happened to the Juzek. The Juzek has taken hits too, but not as many, and not as abusive. Of course, none of any of the impacts are at the level you describe.

The other reasons are that it's a ton lighter than the Juzek, it has a gig bag, and my pickup is on it.

Steve also told me to find a Juzek.

 

[mrpc]

I am looking for a really
nice carved bass and recently played a beauty, but as another of my teachers and another good friend, Buster Williams, said to me recently: "That's a lifelong pursuit."

True! It's the thrill of the chase for sure, it's kept more than one old geezer from staying in bed. With yours and Buster's words in mind, the best man always wins, and instruments seem to end up in the right place at the right time. BTW, my humble experience with a good ply is that like any instrument they can respond and evolve soundwise as much as any good carved. They are diferent types of instruments and seem to need different approaches in technique.

 

[Tom Baldwin]

I think the OP's question is a good one. And while everyone has contributed interesting information and stories, no one has addressed the question: We know New Standard plywoods are good (I have one myself). But in the same price range, why isn't a Kolstein (just for example) hybrid or carved bass just as desireable if not more so? I'm not sure the durability argument holds up - at $4 - 5K none of these basses would qualify as "beaters" in my book.

Who else has played both and can compare, for example, a $4K NS ply to a $4K Kolstein hybrid, or a $5K NS hybrid to a $5K Kolstein fully carved?

 

[Uncletoad]

I'm not sure the durability argument holds up - at $4 - 5K none of these basses would qualify as "beaters" in my book.

That's exactly how I view my Cleveland. It's getting beat and it's not $20,000. It's the cheapest thing I've found worth playing. My $1500 German Ply backup should be a lawn ornament. I keep meaning to get rid of it. I'd rather play one of my old slabs.

Who else has played both and can compare, for example, a $4K NS ply to a $4K Kolstein hybrid, or a $5K NS hybrid to a $5K Kolstein fully carved?

Good question. I'm interested in that too.

 

[anonymous8547j7d7b]

As far as plywood basses go, they can be very handy as backup, or to leave lying in a theatre pit without breaking into a cold sweat. I had an old Selmer for a while, which I had set up for outdoor trad gigs (kids gotta eat). I ended up getting rid of it though, as - like any other plywood bass I've tried - it had a noise rather than any tone quality. To be fair, many inferior carved basses also share this lack of tone - and a good ply is often far better than a crappy carved. IME plywood basses do tend to "amplify well" - but when the tone isn't there to begin with... I stress, this is my opinion & experience. I'm not wrong: neither are those who use ply basses by choice. We're all different etc etc (so play nice ). The way I see it, there's an interesting middle ground developing in the bass market; with a lot of contemporary makers of pretty damn good carved basses at a far more approachable price. Within the last couple of years, I've gone from playing a small (chamber)Jacquet to a really nice contemporary Testore copy made in Hungary by whatshisname. Not only is the new bass a far better jazz instrument, the wood is better as well (according to trusted opinions). Could I have afforded a larger orchestral Jacquet or equivalent? No chance!!! Undoubtedly, I will have saved a fortune in future repair bills. A lot of orchestral pros over here now seem to be using basses by contemporary makers - even selling their (insert here) and switching to the commissioned copy. Perhaps times & attitudes are having to change.
It's a shame, really , that fine old attributed basses are now increasing in value to such a prohibitive level. I wonder if we'll ever see the day when the cost of keeping them maintained in the shop, where they lie for years unsold, also becomes an issue? Hope not. I'd rather they were played. By bassists. You know, like Jacquet, Vuillaime, Ruggieri, Lott and all those cats intended.

 

[drurb]

That's exactly how I view my Cleveland. It's getting beat and it's not $20,000. It's the cheapest thing I've found worth playing.

Of course, this is all a matter of personal preference but, in my opinion, in the last few years especially, fine hybrids have become available that are substantially less expensive than $4-5k and that are certainly worth playing. I'd really like to hear from anyone who has had the opportunity to compare the NS Cleveland and/or La Scala plys with any of these hybrids. Practical considerations aside (e.g., durability, susceptibility to large temperature and humidity swings, etc.) I'd like to know how they compare sound-wise. I wish I could do the comparison myself.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

With Toad's permission (he's been generously hosting a bunch of soundclips for me the past year) I'd be happy to upload and post a recent clip of the office ply now that it's opened up. It sounds wonderful for pizz, and is about the most "full-toned" laminate I've ever played. I don't know if any comparisons with a soundclip would be informative, but i doubt many people would label the bass on the most recent recordings as "sounding like a plywood bass".

 

[peterpalmieri]

I think we now have a pretty good choice of lower priced higher quality carved instruments, hybrids & higher end plys. Since this is such a small market it is doubtful that any of us will ever see all of our choices in the same room.

I have an obvious bias to Kolstein instruments because his shop is close and I bought my first instrument from him 15 years ago, I tend to have a trust factor in anything he puts his name on over other imports. That all being said I am sure most of us have a similar felling with there local shop, I hope! I don't think that everyone needs to agree with me on this.

The high end ply really does stir my curiousity and I am glad there out there, but wish they were more accessable to me.

One point of confusion is the talk about repairs and abuse to plys, I don't know that I understand why there is a bigger concern to repairing a vintage instrument? If you smash your bridge into the top it is going to need serious repair ply or carved, quality insurance will cover most costs. This is one argument I am not sure I get?

 

[dchan]

One point of confusion is the talk about repairs and abuse to plys, I don't know that I understand why there is a bigger concern to repairing a vintage instrument? If you smash your bridge into the top it is going to need serious repair ply or carved, quality insurance will cover most costs. This is one argument I am not sure I get?

That confuses me too, actually. If you have a really serious accident with your beater plywood, what do you do? Is it even worth fixing the beater? Or do you do the job yourself?

 

[Uncletoad]

With Toad's permission (he's been generously hosting a bunch of soundclips for me the past year) I'd be happy to upload and post a recent clip of the office ply now that it's opened up.

Go for it. Got bandwidth to burn.

 

[Marc Piane]

My bass doctor, Mark Sonksen, knows my plywood bass and knows what I expect from the repairs. I want the bass to play well. I don't really care so much about the asthetics. Mark does a bunch of beautiful restorations and is a great craftsman. It's really fun to go by his shop and see a Testore in pieces or whatever. A fair amount of time is spent making repairs and restorations as beautiful or invisible as possible. This takes time and time is money. He just knows when my ply breaks I just want it glued back together.