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Polarity (phase) watch...

As a bassist and (sometime) soundman, I've experienced a LOT of polarity problems/phase issues. Most recently 2 have cropped up:
1.) (2)DNS 112-N cabinets delivered with reverse-polarity woofers installed- but NOT compensated for.
2.) Digital latency delaying sound enough to throw the on stage bass cab out of phase with the house.
There are few things that can kill your bass mojo faster than phase/polarity issues. Anyone else having issues like this?
 
Both well known issues that I have mentioned before in troubleshooting and application help. It's all independent of brands, but the latency issue is reserved for DSP based products.
 
Both well known issues that I have mentioned before in troubleshooting and application help. It's all independent of brands, but the latency issue is reserved for DSP based products.
But does the average bass player ever know and/or check themselves? That's what I'm concerned about. A guy hooks up a second cabinet and his sound gets "thin" but they do they test polarity on the cab or dismiss it as a bad sounding cab? And latency issues are becoming chronic as sound systems increasingly are digital.
 
When more gives you less, that's a good time to flip polarity to one cab. That's probably the easy way to test for the reversal to one of two cabs.

There is the old trick of separating the cabs, playing something mono through them, and moving between the two. If it gets quieter at the center point, there might be a phase problem. I've tried this just out of curiosity. It's subtle and things just don't sound right. It sounds kind of like a bad Karaoke where volume of some sources are reduced and mushy. To me it's easier to just cut power, reverse polarity on one side, power up and test. That was probably 30 years ago when I did that test, so the laws of physics may have changed,
 
As a bassist and (sometime) soundman, I've experienced a LOT of polarity problems/phase issues. Most recently 2 have cropped up:
1.) (2)DNS 112-N cabinets delivered with reverse-polarity woofers installed- but NOT compensated for.
2.) Digital latency delaying sound enough to throw the on stage bass cab out of phase with the house.
There are few things that can kill your bass mojo faster than phase/polarity issues. Anyone else having issues like this?


As long as both DNS 112-N cabinets where in phase with each other, not much of a problem. If your worried about absolute polarity, simply flip the polarity at the board or DI and the problem is compensated for, but not typically dealt with in any effective way. Why? Mixing cabs with different tunings results in phase and group delay errors as well. It's likely your bass amp and the monitors and subs or mains are tuned different enough to cause problems even if the speakers are all in polarity and placed right next to each other.

Another problem is the separation or physical offset between like speakers producing the same sound causes phase problems. Consider all the monitors spread out across a stage. Depending upon where you are in relation to each monitor, it takes a different amount of time for the sound from the monitors to reach you. Stated simply, the sound can only be in phase for all frequencies if you are equidistant from each monitor.

So mix and match subs, monitors, and the bass amp, which are physically displaced from one another and have different phase and group delay characteristics. Yeah it's a mess, but the digital latency actually may help resolve some of the issued. Why? You can attempt to make some correction with delay. IE, delay the closest speakers back to the farthest speakers. This strategy is designed to improve sound for the audience, and may make things worse for the poor bass player. A philosophical decision is required on whether the performer or patrons experience should be prioritized. As a bassist and audio tech, I generally argue to favor improving the audience's experience, but there has to be a reasonable compromise since musicians need to be able to hear well enough to perform.

It's pretty common to delay the subs and mains to the backline, but unfortunately if you think about it, you realize delay cannot be used to get perfect phase alignment everywhere in a venue because the spacing between all speakers is not exactly the same. Basically you can only make a judgment call and adjust for the best possible compromise. I use a large tape measure to get in the ball park then dial it in with my ears. I usually walk the room a couple of times while making adjustments.

Crossovers also introduce phase errors, so pro-level system tuners typically use a program like SMAART to phase align speaker elements and time align speaker arrays for best results. A bit higher in the food chain than I exist, but I do find the theory interesting and useful.

Phase and polarity can also be your friend. Directional (cardioid) subwoofer arrays can be formed with physical offset, delay, and polarity. Also some degree of lobe steering is possible with precise delay adjustments between speaker elements.
 
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I played a gig at a big theater 30 some years ago - the biggest stage my band had ever been on. I had two cabinets, and the connections to them were via dual banana connectors. Didn' t hear anything I played the whole set, until the last song, when I thought "I wonder..." Went over and disconnected one of my cabinets, and... I could hear myself. I[d played most of the set with two cabinets in opposite polarity, which cancelled the sound at my ears.

It's a very real phenomenon, and can have big implications if you get it wrong.
 
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I played a gig at a big theater 30 some years ago - the biggest stage my band had ever been on. I had two cabinets, and the connections to them were via dual banana connectors. Didn' t hear anything I played the whole set, until the last song, when I thought "I wonder..." Went over and disconnected one of my cabinets, and... I could hear myself. I[d played most of the set with two cabinets in opposite polarity, which cancelled the sound at my ears.

It's a very real phenomenon, and can have big implications if you get it wrong.
Bass cabs should always be kept together in a tight cluster. If you spread them out, you will encounter varying degrees of phase cancellation at bass frequencies.
 
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Bass cabs should always be kept together in a tight cluster. If you spread them out, you will encounter varying degrees of phase cancellation at bass frequencies.

Yes, that's right. In my anecdote, they were stacked, so out in front of them, when one was flipped in polarity, they cancelled very well.
 
If two cabinets together sound worse together than separate, look into phase and polarity. Polarity can be easily reversed at the preamp or mixer. Repositioning microphones can help with phase. A tape measure can be handy in measuring positions. Sometimes phase correction requires a delay.

In a DAW these can be corrected for by inverting and shifting tracks. There are plugins that help refine the adjustments. This comes in handy when micing drums. There can also be differences in phase between DI and mic'ed speaker cabinet tracks.

One product is called Precision Time Align and made by Eventide: Invalid Link Removed

Another is InPhase by Waves:

Phase Correction Plugin – InPhase | Waves

Live, phase delays can be corrected with a hardware product such as Phazer from Radial:

Phazer - Radial Engineering
 
I found my GK MB150e flips polarity when I turn on its on-board compressor. I was using the amp to give the drummer a clean bass tone instead of him getting what comes off the back or side of my main cab. Every time I would turn on the compressor, the bottom end would vanish. I finally got set up in my shop and experimented until I found that the effects send, effects return, and line-out, all flip polarity when the compressor was engaged. It's no big deal now that I know it's happening.
 
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2.) Digital latency delaying sound enough to throw the on stage bass cab out of phase with the house.
There are few things that can kill your bass mojo faster than phase/polarity issues. Anyone else having issues like this?
Digital sound processing provides the big benefit to process the signal way more efficient versus analog schematic designs. With digital sound processing the signal can be delayed for a couple of msec. (for example 10..15 msec) which makes it possible to observe the signal by the processor (at some content) before the signal eventually is processed by an distinct algorithm.
I think that's a pretty good prediction for future amplifier designs. I'm pretty sure we will see way more of them (in the near future) in real practice.

I'm very skeptical if these latencies could be really addressed to phase issues cause phase shift is a very different animal than delay.
 
Latency shifts time which shifts phase. The phase shift due to latency will vary by frequency. At high frequencies there will be many complete phase rotations (perhaps even hundreds)
 
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