(Poll) Amp requirements for a rear-ported 212?

[arai]

I am looking for a fairly clean tone if possible, although I dont mind the grit. Reggae lends itself to a scooped/subby sound which I enjoy, but our music explores enough funk and blues that I would be happy with a more balanced and mid-forward tone that would help me cut through and be articulate. I have experience using the gk mb200 which I absolutely loved; the tone was good and the power was respectable. I am looking at the Tone Hammer series because they have been described as more neutral sounding than the GK's (correct me if I am wrong though), and I think that would afford me more tonal versatility.

Perhaps the MB500 is a good way to go...

Thank you Gentleman for the feedback, much appreciated!

Even within Reggae there is wide variety in tones. If I was after a warmer, little dirty with polite mids like the Bob Marley type bass tone I'd grab a tone hammer and if I was going for a cleaner scooped mids like the UB40 type bass tone I'd go for the MB500. Not to say hat both amps couldn't do either, it's just where I think those amps natural tones are at

 

[chris_b]

An 800 watt 212? I'd use a 500 watt amp. I play clean, powerful and low and use 500 watt amps as my standard platform, currently a TH500. My TH500 and CN212 covers 90% of my gigs.

If I'm pushing any 500 watt amp further than halfway on the volumes I know I need a louder amp, and more speakers. I have an 800 watt and 2 ohm amp for those situations.

 

[Gizmot]

Of course you do. The clue is in the word - over + power.



Of course your speaker is fine. -20dB relative to 5200 watts is 52 watts.

That's the point - - I have an abundance of power, so there is never any danger that the amplifier will be overdriven and hurt the speakers. I do play louder from time-to-time, but when I do, I have boatloads of headroom to do it.

Would you buy a vehicle that could only go as fast as you normally drive?

Another thing to remember is that speakers and amplifiers should be rated for continuous (steady state) power. Signals from an instrument - or even music itself - is not a steady state condition. It's all transients.

Nonetheless, having more amplifier power than you need will keep you sounding good and clean.

 

[Gizmot]

OK, but my 810e that's never blown when I've cranked my SVT as hard as I possibly can wants answers!

Jimmy - There are countless technical dissertations about this subject that are factual but pretty dull and boring. Here is a simple explanation of what we're talking about from a website called Audioholics:

Common Misconceptions in Audio Part II - Speakers

We have singled out a few common questions your fellow Audioholics have asked me in the past regarding speaker connectivity and power issues, and decided to post them here with our responses.

My amplifier is rated at 100 watts / channel. My speakers need to be rated higher than that power figure.
The more power you drive a speaker with, in most cases the better. This reduces the risk of having your amp clip and send a damaging DC current through the voice coil. Don't worry too much about the power rating of the speakers. If you hear the woofers bottoming or the sound breaking up, flatten the tone controls and reduce the volume if necessary.



In my lengthy experience playing music (50 years) and professional audio (over 40 years), you don't blow speakers with too much power - but with an amplifier that's overdriven.

The analogy that I use all the time is that the speedometer on my Mercedes goes to 160 MPH - but the car won't actually go that fast. If the same vehicle was equipped with a much more powerful engine, it would go faster AND the engine wouldn't have to work as hard under normal conditions to get the car around in traffic. The engine would run smoother if it doesn't have to work as hard.

So it is with your bass rig - the speakers are driven (pushed back and forth to move air) by an amplifier. If the amplifier has abundant headroom, the amplifier can accurately control the movement of the drivers. However, when you push the amplifier hard, it can't do that anymore - and in extreme cases, it sends square waves (which causes the speaker to move outward and backward as far as it can) to try and reproduce the waveform. This causes the voice coil in the speakers to heat up tremendously - and then to melt. When that happens, the cone can no longer move.

Using a more powerful amp than necessary (or perhaps that your speaker can even hold on a continuous basis) gives you more headroom AND helps prevent the amplifier from running out of juice.

This is the TRUTH.

 

[Bassmec]

That's the point - - I have an abundance of power, so there is never any danger that the amplifier will be overdriven and hurt the speakers. I do play louder from time-to-time, but when I do, I have boatloads of headroom to do it.

Would you buy a vehicle that could only go as fast as you normally drive?

Another thing to remember is that speakers and amplifiers should be rated for continuous (steady state) power. Signals from an instrument - or even music itself - is not a steady state condition. It's all transients.

Nonetheless, having more amplifier power than you need will keep you sounding good and clean.

Very confusing! so headroom is only relevant to amplifiers and not loudspeakers?. And all amplifiers exhibit loudspeaker destructive waveforms when overdriven?. Ever heard of a chap called Jim Marshall.
Actually Loudspeakers are rated for their thermal limits, got nothing to do with how they sound compressing those big amp transients that are outside of X-Max. And you would be surprised to know how few watts you would need to run a pair of ported 12" drivers out of X-Max on a low B with the EQ heavy on the fundamental, like the original poster requires.
A big Reggae bottom end requires a lot of voice coils and a lot of speaker area and just enough power so this don't happen.

That had very little to do with an amp without enough headroom did it.
When I was doing destructive testing at Celestion we looked into overdriven amp waveforms and even messed up the bias settings on some bipolar SS amps to try to produce this elusive DC hidden within an AC signal. We had amps blow up and go to rail, that was obviously DC and we had voice coils heat up with the increase in average power as the harmonic distortion increased and the waveform squared off. In all that experimentation we never blew a loudspeaker with an amp with too little power, other than when the amplifier permanently converted it's self into DC power supply by shorting to rail.

 

[Dave W]

That's the point - - I have an abundance of power, so there is never any danger that the amplifier will be overdriven and hurt the speakers. I do play louder from time-to-time, but when I do, I have boatloads of headroom to do it.

Would you buy a vehicle that could only go as fast as you normally drive?

Another thing to remember is that speakers and amplifiers should be rated for continuous (steady state) power. Signals from an instrument - or even music itself - is not a steady state condition. It's all transients.

Nonetheless, having more amplifier power than you need will keep you sounding good and clean.

Turn your amp up all the way. I guarantee that your 5200w will fry your speakers and, depending on your preamp, still sound clean until the last second because you're sending too much power to them...

I also overdrive my amps all the time and have never blown a speaker.

That's the TRUTH

 

[Lo-E]

The preceding debate notwithstanding, I voted 500W, but not just based upon your 212 alone. 500W is, as you say, a good middle ground and there's nothing that says you won't end up buying some other cabinet at some point that wants or needs the extra power. There's also a possibility you could end up playing clubs that have house backline cabinets which may be less efficient than your Markbass and need the extra headroom a 500W amp can provide. One of the benefits of having separate heads and cabinets is that you can mix and match things as your needs dictate, so it helps to choose gear that can be as flexible as possible, and I think 500W would prepare you for just about any situation.

As far as tone goes, you said that for your reggae material, you're looking for a scooped/subby (dubby? ) kind of tone, but wouldn't mind something more mid-forward for other styles. Most modern amps will have enough tone control to give you a pretty wide range of tones, but I'd be thinking about what the "native" tones of these amps are. When you set the controls flat, what do these amps sound like? The Aggie (I'd get the TH-500 over the 350, by the way) has an emphasis in the low mids and is slightly reminiscent of the classic Ampeg sound. The G-K has emphasis in the high mids, which is why they're so popular with rock bassists looking for aggressive tones. The starting point for both of these amps is already mid-forward.

Given the two choices, I think the native tone of the Aggie would be closer to what you're looking for, but I'm going to throw dirt in the works here and suggest giving a listen to some Markbass or Eden heads. Eden doesn't get the attention around here that it used to, but their native tone, as well as the Markbass stuff, tends to be a little scooped with a lot of low bass. Eden also has very powerful EQ, which can get you a lot of different tones if you need them. The Aggie and G-K are both excellent heads, and I don't think you'd be unhappy with either of them, but I think something like an Eden WT-550 would suit your needs better than either of those. Markbass can also do great scoops or, if you're not against used gear, SWR was famous for scooped tones. Trace Elliot was known for that sound, too, although I'm not familiar with their more recent products. In your position, I'd be looking for something that gets close to the tone I'm seeking before I even touch the EQ knobs.

 

[dincz]

Common Misconceptions in Audio Part II - Speakers

...snip

This is the TRUTH.

That quote contains almost no truth whatsoever. Just the usual mythinformation.

 

[Bass_Pounder]

Jimmy - i like you - but youre WRONG. Ask any engineer who knows what he's talking about. I'm lying in bed ready to go to sleep - but tommorow I'll send you links to a couple of articles to prove my assertion.

I spent a lot of years working at EV and JBL, I'm a member of the Audio Engineering Society, and a Syn-Aud-Con grad too.

So now you are more educated and experienced in this field then guys like Jerrold Tiers, Bob Lee, Bill Fitzmaurice, etc.........

 

[wcriley]

This reduces the risk of having your amp clip and send a damaging DC current through the voice coil.

Any amp that's sending DC to the speakers is in dire need of repair.

in extreme cases, it sends square waves (which causes the speaker to move outward and backward as far as it can) to try and reproduce the waveform. This causes the voice coil in the speakers to heat up tremendously - and then to melt.

I never melted a voice coil when I sent synth square waves through an amp.

 

[B-string]

Jimmy - i like you - but youre WRONG. Ask any engineer who knows what he's talking about. I'm lying in bed ready to go to sleep - but tommorow I'll send you links to a couple of articles to prove my assertion.

I spent a lot of years working at EV and JBL, I'm a member of the Audio Engineering Society, and a Syn-Aud-Con grad too.

You are aware of the rules of representing yourself truthfully here. Your statements are in contradiction to JBL's white papers just as a point of interest.

 

[Gizmot]

You are aware of the rules of representing yourself truthfully here. Your statements are in contradiction to JBL's white papers just as a point of interest.

Most legitimate pro audio companies reccomend playing speakers with amps equal to 2x the rated continuous power of the speakers thst you're using. Yes - I use considerably more power than that because I'm a knowledgeable user and I know the limitations of my speakers. Too much is better than not enough

 

[KB1UHJ]

Thanks guys!

Technology has gifted us with Neodymium, efficient ported enclosures, and Class D amps, but it still seems like we as bass players are doomed to shlep the larger rigs (usually). For reggae, a standalone 212 might leave me wanting more (should have gotten the 8 ohm version so I could expand in the future) but I think its a good middle ground and a dependable cab for what I do. I feel a lot more confident about purchasing a new head thanks to all the feedback from you guys.

Keep Thumpin'

-Will

 

[B-string]

Most legitimate pro audio companies reccomend playing speakers with amps equal to 2x the rated continuous power of the speakers thst you're using. Yes - I use considerably more power than that because I'm a knowledgeable user and I know the limitations of my speakers. Too much is better than not enough

Some pertinent reading from JBL attached.
A most interesting quote from that whitepaper:

"C. For musical instrument application, where
distorted (overdriven) output may be a musical
requirement, the system should be powered with an
amplifier capable of delivering only one-half of the IEC
rating for the system."

 

[goran]

I have that cabinet and tried it with Genz-Benz Shuttlemax 9.2 (900W @ 4ohm) and Gallien Krueger Fusion 550 (550W @ 4ohm). I pushed both amps to their limits when I tested the cab, and it never showed any sign of distress. In normal situations, I never have to push amp that far, but it was good to know that cab can handle it.

 

[RBASS930]

That cab is a beast and can handle a lot. One of MB's best cabs. It's very efficient, and loud, so don't be too concerned with wattage. Use your ears!
I gigged it in a very loud coverband with a GK MB500, Carvin B1000, GK MB800, and a LMTube800. All amps worked well, and both the cab and amps were nowhere near their limits in keeping up with the band.

 

[Bassmec]

Most legitimate pro audio companies reccomend playing speakers with amps equal to 2x the rated continuous power of the speakers thst you're using. Yes - I use considerably more power than that because I'm a knowledgeable user and I know the limitations of my speakers. Too much is better than not enough

Deliberate addition of harmonic distortion or any other effect that raises average power like compression is going to change the equation for your voice coils and make protecting your loudspeakers from your amp very much more difficult, because it's harder to discern when your loudspeakers are under stress and distorting against a background of deliberate distortion.
Your system can only be operated safely with very low average power signals (IE dead clean) and loudspeakers with an enormous amount of spare travel provided between X-Max and X-Lim.

 

[Gizmot]

Some pertinent reading from JBL attached.
A most interesting quote from that whitepaper:

"C. For musical instrument application, where
distorted (overdriven) output may be a musical
requirement, the system should be powered with an
amplifier capable of delivering only one-half of the IEC
rating for the system."

If I was a guitar player trying for crunch or overdriven sound all the time and wanted to turn it up to "11" using half-power might help prevent some speaker problems. That's who that recommendation is for.

I'm not that guy - I'm a bass player.

I want clean, solid, well-defined bass sound with good headroom. I have good quality, full-range speakers that are capable of delivering the sound and output I want. I have a very high-quality, concert-class amp with an excess of power and built-in DSP - including high-pass filtering, dynamics processing and good limiters. I use Warwick and Rickenbacker basses. I'm not a great player, but I sound excellent.

Using big power isn't about how loud I can play - it's about making certain that I sound as I can.

 

[Bass_Pounder]

If I was a guitar player trying for crunch or overdriven sound all the time and wanted to turn it up to "11" using half-power might help prevent some speaker problems. That's who that recommendation is for.

So then, how come guitar players are not replacing their speakers after every gig ?

And what does the rest of your diatribe have to do with the fact you were WRONG ?