Poll: When is vintage no longer vintage?

[tb-player]

You may have heard some version of the story…

"A man walks into a pawn shop and sees an axe with the sign 'George Washington's axe that chopped down the cherry tree.'
The man asks the shop owner, 'Is this really George Washington's axe?'
The shop owner replies, 'Yes. And it's been well maintained. The handle has been replaced three times and the axe-head has been replaced twice.' " (Ba-dum-dum)

I recently found a great looking 1975 Fender Jazz Bass on Reverb. Very Marcus Miller in its color and style. The price was high(ish) but considering the recently ridiculous increase in vintage Fender prices, it is what it is. I messaged the shop about the weight and condition and received a response, "The bass weighs 4.27kg and everything looks to be original."

Not a bad weight for a 70s jazz. So I found the original listing on their website. As I went through the photos I noticed the pickups were split-coil jazz pickups. Pretty sure those weren't being made by Fender in '75. Then I scrolled & read the description:

"This is a killing bass!

Replacement pickups (Lindy Fralin Split Coils).

Swapped out scratchplate, bridge and the potentiometers.

The body has also been refinished."​

And while the upgrades all look to be well done (it probably really is a killing bass with those Fralins), the only thing left from 1975 is the body and neck, and maybe the tuners?

What's your take? Is this vintage? Or is it basically a glorified parts bass?

(It's still a sweet looking bass. Probably sounds amazing.)

 

[Bass Viking]

All the important stuff has been modified. I consider this to be player grade, not collectible.

I have Fralins in a Squier Jazz body. They sound awesome!

 

[coreyfyfe]

The biggest thing vintage fenders have going for them in my opinion is the feel. When you find a nice vintage piece, worn in in all the right places with that little bit of extra mojo in your hands, then it's worth a bit extra on the price to me. But, I also wouldn't pay vintage premium for a player grade instrument just because it felt good.

Vintage pricing is always a sliding scale. Knock off $$ for the pickups, electronics, pickguard, and refinish. Does the price make sense in that context? Can you get the same feel from a modern bass at a better/more reasonable price?

Personally I wouldn't buy it without the original parts, even if I planned to swap them out I would want to have the stock pieces. But do the math and see if it makes sense for you.

 

[Bob_Ross]

I have no opinion on whether that bass qualifies for the distinction of "vintage" I'm just here to say that I love Ship Of Theseus/George Washington's Axe scenarios!

 

[tb-player]

I have no opinion on whether that bass qualifies for the distinction of "vintage" I'm just here to say that I love Ship Of Theseus/George Washington's Axe scenarios!

Yes!! If I were to ever purchase this bass, I would name it Theseus.

 

[tb-player]

All the important stuff has been modified. I consider this to be player grade, not collectible.

I have Fralins in a Squier Jazz body. They sound awesome!

If tone is in the fingers, then every bass we play is vintage.

 

[micguy]

One of the fundamental things about Fenders is that they are designed, from the ground up, to be "parts basses" - made from a bunch of pieces made to standard dimensions so things can be bolted on in assembly quickly, by people with minimal training. There is really nothing magical about the parts that Fender put on them originally, other than they were designed to be cost effective - Leo never spent a dime more than he had to. Somehow, over the years, people have become fascinated with instruments that still have all the original/cost effective stuff on them that was bolted on at the factory. If you want to pay more for that, feel free, but it's not something that some of us give that much value to.

 

[Z-Bass]

I wasn't sure how to vote. I would say yes this is a 'vintage' bass by nature of its age but with the modifications completed (no matter how well they're done), I do not believe it should be priced as such. Let's be honest, if this were the other way around, I'm sure the non-original parts and the refinish would be a factor. Then again, I'm not an expert in these things so maybe my opinion is off. I will say that's a sweet looking 70's jazz bass and I'd totally snag that for the right price.

 

[Killing Floor]

A - modified, not vintage
B - unquestionably and unflinchingly better

But it's not something I'd buy to hold on to for resale because it's not original.
The above said, I have Fralins in one of my 73 and better electronics to make it a better bass and I can swap back in the CBS parts if I ever want to move it.

The thing about nostalgia is it makes you go blind. Fender made a lot of really messy guitars in the 1970s and sure, some good ones. But now that 1960s/pre-CBS are becoming unobtanium the 70s units are suddenly becoming legendary for their build quality and playability.
70s Ps and Js are not increasing in value because they're great, they are increasing in value because you can't find good 60s models for under $5 figures anymore.
Just remember nostalgia is a very short lived investment strategy.

 

[Bass Viking]

One of the fundamental things about Fenders is that they are designed, from the ground up, to be "parts basses" - made from a bunch of pieces made to standard dimensions so things can be bolted on in assembly quickly, by people with minimal training. There is really nothing magical about the parts that Fender put on them originally, other than they were designed to be cost effective - Leo never spent a dime more than he had to. Somehow, over the years, people have become fascinated with instruments that still have all the original/cost effective stuff on them that was bolted on at the factory. If you want to pay more for that, feel free, but it's not something that some of us give that much value to.

What I find funny is that qualities that would normally devalue a guitar (wear and damage) have become selling points for vintage instruments. I watched a vintage dealer rave about how cool cigarette smoke discoloration was on an old Fender he was selling: "This will never happen again!" (due to smoking bans).

 

[micguy]

What I find funny is that qualities that would normally devalue a guitar (wear and damage) have become selling points for vintage instruments. I watched a vintage dealer rave about how cool cigarette smoke discoloration was on an old Fender he was selling: "This will never happen again!" (due to smoking bans).

Cigarette smoke is not cool - it's disgusting. If someone gave me an old bass with smoke residue all over it., the FIRST thing I'd do would be to clean that nasty stuff off of it. I did play in bars when cigarette smoke was the order of the day - I'd drink one beer (or part of one - I seldom finished it) per set - you did that for two reasons:

1) You're in a bar - they are there to sell booze, so it's a good idea business wise to promote the bar in whatever you're drinking.

2) You absolutely needed something to wash the cigarette smoke out of your mouth and throat - when you do take a sip, it is absolutely disgusting to feel all that stuff wash down your throat, but if you wait too long to take a sip, it just gets worse over time.

I know old people are given a hard time for the "when I was your age" comments, but in this case, I think today's "kids" absolutely do have it easier - LED lights (the old incandescent lights were insanely hot) and no tobacco smoke make playing SO much nicer nowadays.

 

[bass12]

Well, the original parts are vintage. The replacement parts are not. So to claim that the bass, as a whole, is vintage is, in my opinion, dishonest. I personally don't place any extra value on "vintage" instruments. I either like the way a bass plays and sounds or I don't, and I'm either okay with the condition of an instrument or I'm not.

 

[tb-player]

A - modified, not vintage
B - unquestionably and unflinchingly better

But it's not something I'd buy to hold on to for resale because it's not original.
The above said, I have Fralins in one of my 73 and better electronics to make it a better bass and I can swap back in the CBS parts if I ever want to move it.

The thing about nostalgia is it makes you go blind. Fender made a lot of really messy guitars in the 1970s and sure, some good ones. But now that 1960s/pre-CBS are becoming unobtanium the 70s units are suddenly becoming legendary for their build quality and playability.
70s Ps and Js are not increasing in value because they're great, they are increasing in value because you can't find good 60s models for under $5 figures anymore.
Just remember nostalgia is a very short lived investment strategy.

100%

For me, a natural 70s jazz is less about difficulties in finding an affordable 60s model and more about the aggressive sound of the 70s pickup spacing, white blocks on maple and that old school Marcus vibe. If I were to buy this bass, I'd drop in a John East J-Retro, slap on a Badass bridge and start a funk band.

 

[Gravedigger Dav]

Vintage is what you think is vintage.
The consensus seems to be vintage requires all parts to be original as assembled at the factory.
Except Strings. So, why are string excluded from this opinion?
Let's think about a "vintage" automobile. As they are items expected to wear out over time, tires, filters, brakes, and light bulbs are like strings, They don't count; however, almost all vintage cars have other components that are not from the factory. The will have new paint jobs, engines and transmissions will have been replaced, the upholstery has probably been replaced. Some will have components replaced with original factory parts and some will be replaced with after market parts.
So, why are these altered cars vintage but a refinished bass is not?
So, vintage is what you think is vintage, not what I think is vintage.
As to value, like anything else the value is whatever someone is willing to pay for it.

 

[dbsfgyd1]

You may have heard some version of the story…

"A man walks into a pawn shop and sees an axe with the sign 'George Washington's axe that chopped down the cherry tree.'
The man asks the shop owner, 'Is this really George Washington's axe?'
The shop owner replies, 'Yes. And it's been well maintained. The handle has been replaced three times and the axe-head has been replaced twice.' " (Ba-dum-dum)

I recently found a great looking 1975 Fender Jazz Bass on Reverb. Very Marcus Miller in its color and style. The price was high(ish) but considering the recently ridiculous increase in vintage Fender prices, it is what it is. I messaged the shop about the weight and condition and received a response, "The bass weighs 4.27kg and everything looks to be original."

Not a bad weight for a 70s jazz. So I found the original listing on their website. As I went through the photos I noticed the pickups were split-coil jazz pickups. Pretty sure those weren't being made by Fender in '75. Then I scrolled & read the description:

"This is a killing bass!

Replacement pickups (Lindy Fralin Split Coils).

Swapped out scratchplate, bridge and the potentiometers.

The body has also been refinished."​

And while the upgrades all look to be well done (it probably really is a killing bass with those Fralins), the only thing left from 1975 is the body and neck, and maybe the tuners?

What's your take? Is this vintage? Or is it basically a glorified parts bass?

(It's still a sweet looking bass. Probably sounds amazing.)
View attachment 5108897

H$ll no. There is ZERO advantage to paying an alpha on this bass because of its age. Save yourself a boatload of cash. Buy a newer bass, take it to a luthier for a set up and customize to taste. Or just play it the way it is. Odds are you will end up with a better more enjoyable bass to play for a good deal less money.

When you are done with it, odds are, because it an incredible instrument, you will get top dollar down the road.

 

[acleex38]

Yes!! If I were to ever purchase this bass, I would name it Theseus.

I've always loved "The Ship of Theseus" - another strong example is (for comic fans) the short story "My Mother's Axe" from the comic "The Old Guard." The main character (who is immortal and thousands of years old) uses her mother's axe. Sure, the head broke, so it's been replaced a bunch of times. And the handle snapped, so it's been swapped out. And the leather wrapping rots away every few years. But "it's my mother's axe."

Which ALSO makes a great name for that bass, with an amusing double-meaning.

 

[Mastermold]

The fewer original parts the lower the price. The bass should be sold honestly for what it is. Whether it's a good bass or not you shouldn't pay as if it was all original.

 

[tb-player]

I've always loved "The Ship of Theseus" - another strong example is (for comic fans) the short story "My Mother's Axe" from the comic "The Old Guard." The main character (who is immortal and thousands of years old) uses her mother's axe. Sure, the head broke, so it's been replaced a bunch of times. And the handle snapped, so it's been swapped out. And the leather wrapping rots away every few years. But "it's my mother's axe."

Which ALSO makes a great name for that bass, with an amusing double-meaning.

We kept referencing the Ship of Theseus idea when we were in the Vasa Museum in Stockholm a few years back. It's a museum built around an almost entirely in-tact, 17th century salvaged ship. It's very impressive. They explained how they've refurbished and maintained the ship. I wondered at what point is this still the same ship? lol

I've never heard "The Old Guard"/My Mother's Axe story. I'm sure the George Washington's axe fable has its roots there. I've heard a version of that story most of my life. WHe I was growing up, one of my dad's favorite jokes was "Wanna buy George Washington's axe? It's had 2 new heads and 3 new handles." (or something like that... lol)

 

[elgranluis]

If the seller is being honest with the description , I'd say it qualifies as vintage. Pots wear out and need to be replaced, replacement pickups are common in 70s basses, and bridges were also "upgraded".

however , from the parts list of what has been "changed ". it does sound like they slapped an old neck on a new body (everything's new on the body-side , including the finish!).

So yeah , it could be vintage or not , depends on how honest or misinformed the seller is.

 

[Jefenator]

To me, the body & neck are the real essence of the instrument (especially the neck). IME that 70s stuff has a certain character about it. Not always in a good way, but IME there's nothing quite like it.
I can abide reversible mods - or even irreversible ones - if they help lower the price within my grasp.
I wouldn't say no to original pickups. But I wouldn't pay the full premium for them, either. If some collector wants to fork out $1K or whatever for some fragile, brittle 50-year-old wiring they can have it. With a set of Lollars & a fresh harness, I'll be good to go for another 4000 shows.
I also like to see refinishes. I mean, I love authentic playing wear as much as the next guy. I would hate to be the one to have to make the call, but at a certain point when more than half the finish is gone and the body looks like it's been dragged behind a boat, it gets to be more gross than charming. A good refinish means you're set for another decade or three and a bad one makes it all the more affordable!