I used to play with a trio that did "Another Star" by Stevie Wonder as well. Good luck.
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Double Bass Pop songs for a jazz gig?
- Thread starter Greg Scheer
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Sort of staying out of it, because the specific situation might call for it. Also, Ed pretty much laid out why pretending any modern pop tunes can't really make any sense as improvisational material. II-V-Is are foundational to Bebop being invented, so there is less than zero analog between standards and modern pop. Older pop music was generally written by a composer other than the performer, using fairly standardized forms most working musicians knew. This made them easy tools to quickly find common ground.Cue damon smith in 3...2....
The deeper thing is once you recognize that music has power over human beings, you having to take responsibility for using the forces we know have more power over listeners than others. In terms of more artistic situations, this stuff is just more powerful and irresistible for most of us to keep in moderation once you let it get its foot in the door. This goes triple for presenters and owners once this genie is out of the bottle.
Of course, in this specific situation, it might be what is needed to keep the job.
Justifying it beyond that just doesn't hold any water.
Also, you have to remember the primary function of pop music is to divide generations - not really in a bad way, but so each one can have their own thing. Nirvana, for example, was not for me and my generation of punk listeners. Jazz on the other hand is a multi-generational music - this goes for listeners as well.
So, one drawback, is while playing a pop tune will get you a quick and easy response from some listeners, you can be sure someone in the room hates that music, quite possibly a band member. Most people are neutral to standard jazz rep. at this point. So, you are wading into an area of very strong opinions one way or another. Just because you got a great response one night, doesn't mean it will continue. What is hip in pop is very much a moving target, what is "cool" at one moment is gone the next. Even with older music that might seem like it is proven. A song or musician being well known does not mean universally loved. I would bet as many people actively despise Steely Dan & Neil Diamond as love them.
Ultimately, it is a cheap and easy party trick that isn't taken seriously by many strong players for a good reason.
Great questions, Ed. The owner is there all the time. He seems to like us: our pay has gone up recently because he knows people are coming for the jazz. Business seems to be good; he's more worried about finding cooks during COVID. The pianist seems to be thinking preemptively about how to endear us even more to the owner and patrons. I think we could simply be more mindful of playing tunes that people are likely to recognize: Misty, Girl from Ipanema, Don't Get Around Much, etc. As you point out, most people think of us as high-class aural wallpaper, but others come specifically to hear *jazz*.
This is a treasure trove! Thanks, Steven.
I was talking about it with my son last night and we decided that the Boomer and Gen X clientele is more likely to respond to jazzy versions of classic rock/pop than clever renditions of Nicki Minaj or BTS.
I was talking about it with my son last night and we decided that the Boomer and Gen X clientele is more likely to respond to jazzy versions of classic rock/pop than clever renditions of Nicki Minaj or BTS.
Woah. I didn't expect a complete ethnomusicological evaluation, but this response is spot on! You're right, once the pop genie is out of the bottle, there may be no going back to a jazz gig. I keep imagining how playing Neil Diamond's "Sweet Caroline" would change the room. It makes me shudder.
Interestingly, my day job is in church music and a similar conversation is ongoing. "What can we do to reach the kids? If we just do popular song X people won't leave for cool church Y." I'm not a traditionalist by any stretch of the imagination, but I don't expect Millenials are interested in hearing someone their dad's age sing the latest worship song any more than these restaurant patrons want to hear a jazz trio play Charli XCX.
All part of the artistic challenge no? I work with several musicians who bring their arrangements of pop tunes. We’ll do some of the aforementioned selections like Stevie wonder, Beatles (there are ton of real book charts on these) plus steely dan and some other classic type rock. The police: message, Roxanne.
Last week I played with a new to me pianist who pulled out a coupla charts for a Radiohead tune and a Björk song … neither of which I was familiar with … but a listening patron said “Was that Björk?!” He was floored we played it. I was floored he recognized it with all the jazzy subs the pianist laid in there lol.
Last week I played with a new to me pianist who pulled out a coupla charts for a Radiohead tune and a Björk song … neither of which I was familiar with … but a listening patron said “Was that Björk?!” He was floored we played it. I was floored he recognized it with all the jazzy subs the pianist laid in there lol.
This is probably the best idea I've seen. "Those guys play jazz." So, maybe some Glenn Miller and Sweet Georgia Brown, etc.
Ethan Iverson is no slouch and the Bad Plus played some pretty surprising pop songs -- "Call Me" -- and they seemed to be well-received by their audiences. Chris Speed does a terrific version of the Velvet Underground's "All Tomorrow's Parties". I would listen to the latest Adele hits, they will be recognized, pick out a fun one, and come up with a non-boring way of playing it.
Disagree. Strongly. This is prime example of mediocre players who used the dopey pop tunes to cut in line. We shouldn't have to know who they are and we wouldn't without the dumb songs.
You will find very few who respect them in direct conversation. You will find people playing with them to make few extra $$, however.
Fair enough on the Bad Plus, but disagree on Ethan Iverson. More generally though I don't think there's anything wrong with a striking, surprising version of a pop tune in a set.
100%. There are Thousands of great jazz tunes. You could play any number of Horace Silver or Abdullah Ibrahim tunes and use it as a chance to go deeper into jazz history and an understanding of the music. The absolute WORST reason given to add pop to a band's book is that jazz musicians need rep. This couldn't be further from the truth. You could spend your whole life only playing Carla Bley tunes and not really exhaust the possibilities - to name just one example.
As I said, this may in fact be the solution to the OP's issue, I am just addressing the general bad justifications given.
Yeah, Horace Silver, Dave Brubeck, Hancock's Jazz Moods, Petrucciani's Both Worlds, Coltrane's Ballads, etc..
Not to beat a dead horse, but just to put forward another cautionary reason to avoid this behavior. EI failed produce a single interesting phrase over two Billy Hart albums. With a rhythm section of Ben Street & Hart. There is a very real feeling he cut in line and his place in the music will always be in question. His blog does little to make up for it. He traded the quick and easy route for the respect of his peers.
I find the Radiohead and Bjork tunes every bit as distasteful, but it is pretty clear we'd have heard of not only Brad M. but the members of his trio as well for their playing alone.
Totally agree. Most human beings are unable to handle such moderation given the response it gets.
in many ways it negates the challenge of making jazz compelling. To use a a food analogy, it is a bit like opening a vegan joint and after a few weeks just throwing bacon in everything to get a better response.
It isn't about not liking either pop or bacon, but understanding when they are cheating in terms of the goal at hand.
Exactly. A big, confident version of Equinox will hit harder than any pop tune.
I for one actually like alot of popular music over the last 60 years, and taking from that tune bank is in no way an inherently bad thing. To me it's more about your intent. Are you playing it purely to score nostalgia points with the audience? Or is it a song you love and respect? That's why i linked that Black Hole Sun vid. It's a good song and the Soundgarden is a good band. I grew up listening to that stuff and still think it's quality music.
To circle this back to the OP, don't ask for suggestions as to what to play. Just choose tunes that you and your bandmates actually love. You'll actually be excited to play them and it won't just be throwing the audience/owner a bone.
To circle this back to the OP, don't ask for suggestions as to what to play. Just choose tunes that you and your bandmates actually love. You'll actually be excited to play them and it won't just be throwing the audience/owner a bone.
Absolutely.
I have a lot of albums like the ones I quoted before.
I like to listen to them of course. But I also use them when we invite someone to dinner at our house. They are great with non jazz heads.
I'm not going to put Crescent, or Shape of Jazz, but I can put one of the examples I quoted, no problem.
But I'm not gonna put some Kenny G pop tunes, or something like that. No way.
I think your issue is really that you just don't like popular music. Personally i think some of the tunes Bad Plus rearrange are good tunes before they took them on. Like Burt Bacharach's stuff. He wrote some good popular songs that plenty of jazz artists have picked up over the years, including Bill Evans. I'm not gonna sit here and act like Bill made a mistake by playing Alfie.
Again, in the interest of lively discussion: You are getting warmer! As Jackie Brown said to Ordell Robbie; "You ain't askin' the right questions". The question is, will this material move your music forward, will it deepen your understanding of jazz history and harmonic & linear improvisation. Probably not.
I agree that Soundgarden was a great band, I saw them on a bill with Tool opening for them, Rollins band was headlining! The next question is can those in your group play the melody in a way that does Chris Cornell or Bjork justice? I am going to guess not! Best to just listen to Soundgarden's version of Soundgarden.
Again, there is a difference between liking a song or band and it being interesting to your work as an improviser.
Do you like Vijay Iyer's take on "Galang"? Or Johnathan Blake's "Synchronicity"? I certainly do -- although the latter is so abstract it's hard to call it a cover. But they deepen my understanding of a lot of things. Jazz history is only one part of the joy of music.
I think we just disagree on EI. I'm not a huge fan but I like the Bud Powell thing and I think his latest tune "For Ellen Raskin" a lot. I'm not saying it's Codebreakers or anything, but it pleases me.
