Double Bass Positions Explained

[Alex Scott]

I think you can be a great player however you want, but I really think having simpler positions and pivoting more makes your playing smoother.

How long did you play the bass before you played in thumb position?

 

[Hector Wolff]

I think that learning the positions gradually put a framework into place, and broke the vast area of the fingerboard down into manageable segments. The main draw back I saw at the time was that when you are taking the notes is such limited groupings, the excersizes that can be developed were somewhat limited. That is the basis for much of the criticism of Simandl excercises as not being very melodic.

So yes with more positions to get through the process may take longer. But I have to wonder if with fewer positions, and each position encompasing more notes, whether the overall time frame to learn the whole fingerboard, might not be the same.

I am not a good example for judging time, because after my first year, when I had reached the octave G, I joined a community orchestra, and have been playing the orchestral repertoire (sp?). This greatly slowed my progress with lesson material, since so much practice time was devoted to the orchestral program. So when I say I reached thumb position studies in my third year, you can see it had nothing to do with learning 12 vs 6 positions.

As I said I think of the note I am moving to, and whether I shall be going on past there or coming back. Beyond that my shifts are planned either to maximize percentages of staying in tune, or to maximize the speed or fluidity of the phrase.

 

[damonsmith]

A serious double bass player in the 21st century will work through several methods for both historical and technical reasons. I even went through part of the early Billie book using 134 to see what it was about.
Simandl positions are VERY useful for typical, solid "bass playing" such as walking jazz lines with a big unamplified sound (I'd love to hear a pivot-er with a pizz sound as big as Wilbur Ware!) and much of the orchestral repertoire.
The more recent tradition of bassists being complete musicians who can fully interact in all musical situations as well as solo requires being aware of as many advanced fingering systems and extended techniques as possible.
there are many things I play that would not be possible without Simandl, Rabbath or Petracchi.
Petracchi is one I don't see brought up in these discussions enough.
I find his ideas to be a bit more solid than Rabbath/Vance so I tend to favor his techniques over theirs.
My Biggest point is don't make excuses for not looking at any one method.

 

[Cory Palmer]

I think the reason Petracchi isn't brought up as much is because you have to be fairly advanced just to approach the book. Petracchi is something everybody should look at though. Great stuff.

 

[Hector Wolff]

.
My Biggest point is don't make excuses for not looking at any one method.

I am not making excuses for anything.

I was asked how long it took me to get into thumb position studies, presumably to illustrate that if I had studied a method with fewer positions, I would have made it to thumb studies sooner.

This may well be true. I have always followed the method my teacher laid down, just as I have always used the French bow because that's what my teacher taught. I trusted him and respected the results he got, and I never felt the need, nor had the time to explore other methods in serarch of an advantage. I accept the notion that good music can be played and great players made using any method or bow.

I have never automatically assumed that the French bow was better, or that the Simandl method was better - it is simply all I knew. I only chime in to these discussions, when comments are made about the one method I know, that don't make sense to me or that run contrary to my own experiences.

If music were my life, rather than my passion, I would certainly make myself familiar with several methods, in an effort to expand my outlook and musicianship. But my family and career take up most of my time. I am content to work as hard as I can, within the time constraints I have, to improve my playing with each passing year.

 

[damonsmith]

I was not just directing that comment to you, but to anyone who says: "this is the ONE method". If any the Simandl is certainly the one that is most proven.
It has also been said that most of us never think in terms of positions anyway.
That is true, I just think in terms of the group of notes I am working with.

 

[EFischer1]

It has also been said that most of us never think in terms of positions anyway.
That is true, I just think in terms of the group of notes I am working with.

I mean that is the point of the method books anyways. They aren't meant to be the best or singular method of play. The idea is that you learn many different fingering systems until they become natural to you. Then you go into the music and use these tools (exactly what they are) to make the best fingering decision you can.

 

[Jake]

A great technical approach that is very effective for any kind of playing is Jeff Bradetich's technique exercises. Jeff taught Max Dimoff who is now Principal Bass of the Cleveland Orchestra as well as bassists in the Chicago Lyric Opera, the Ft. Worth Symphony, and the Seattle Symphony.
He has a wonderful video called Double Bass Technique that costs about $20 which can be ordered directly, I believe. His email address is [email protected]. These excercises have done more for me than any other kind of approach.

 

[TomGale]

The difference between 12 vs 3.
If I cover D, D#, and E (closed hand, Simandl, 124, etc), I have covered 4th position. If I open to an open hand position covering D, D#, E, and F, I have remained in the same basic hand position but I now have also covered Simandl 5th pos. If I pivot a full step from 1st finger D to 2nd finger E with the 4th on F#, I now have covered Simandl 5 1/2.
In case you're still awake, that's 3 positions so far.
Now, I pivot the first finger back to C#and cover Simandl pos. 3 1/2.
So, one position can equal 4 Simand positions OR 3 = 12!
Or better yet, deal with the notes in the passage in the most musical way you can and stop counting to 3 or 12.
Tom Gale
ASODB.com

 

[TomGale]

Think of the note upon which your first finger rests to start the passage - let's say, D. Now, you know that as of this spot, you can cover (if musically necessary!) a perfect fourth - C# to F# (see previous post).
So, why don't we just call it, "D position". Makes sense to me....
TG

 

[jpf64]

- Why pick? I have both books and many others. By not doing Simandl you:
a. miss a lot of tradition and history
b. you won't really know if your chosen "new" method is really better

Hear Him , Hear Him ! My teacher had me work thru Simandl and Louis Bellison's Modern Reading in 4/4 Time..i told him i wanted to sound like, Ray Brown & Paul Chambers,have a nice phat , warm 'Bassy' tone..not this modern, electric bass string action , tone like your'e pursing your lips into a rasberry!..I personally don't like like playing arco or pizz sitting down, I think i get more meat in the string pluck using the weight of my arm, Is pendulum like, but my card doesn't say bass boss.. I'm sure the pivot thing cello /Rabbath technique works great for some! for me it wasn't broke, so I personally wasn't interested in fixing it, but what ever helps you speak music with a good sound is ok ..i try and havecan open mind and I'm going to check out these new magical etudes..i try and follow in giant's steps and i believe they used Simandl haha I think Stanley Clarke had done Simandl 1&2 by age 12 ! haha

- Why pick? I have both books and many others. By not doing Simandl you:
a. miss a lot of tradition and history
b. you won't really know if your chosen "new" method is really better

 

[Sam Sherry]

The Bellson book is really a great help -- diligent work on that helps your sight-reading on any instrument and any type of music. Love it.

It's cool when somebody looks at a 16-year-old thread and finds value in it.
It's cool to look back and see who used to be here, and who is still here from then.
All those reflect the strengths of TB/DB.

 

[Bruce Calin]

I had a first lesson with a student yesterday. He is an adult who plays several instruments and has a pretty good ear for pitch. He wants to play jazz. In a situation like this I want to adjust my approach to make the best use of time and the student's previous musical experience. What seems to work the best is a combination of Simandl and Rabbath: S to get a handle on hand shape and spacing in the lowest positions and R to get shifting concepts going as soon as possible. The George Vance Vade Macum is a good combination of both methods. So often the student already has some sort of ensemble commitment so I'm left with the "quick and dirty" approach. If the student has enough previous musical knowledge and motivation it can work pretty well. I also don't start with the bow in this situation even though it is valuable long term. The goal is to get the student playing with a minimum of technical issues or dead ends.

 

[Andy Mopley]

What are the seven basic positions and five intermediate? Where does each start in relation to the note played by the first finger?

I know this is a really basic concept, but I'm mostly selft taught. An explanation will help me make better use of this resource.

Thanks very much.[/QUOTE]

Nicholas Walker’s Simandl and Rabbath double bass position comparison chart – Jason Heath's Double Bass Blog

 

[David Potts]

I do not know the history of why Simandl named the positions his way but can relate them to the "white" notes on the A string corresponding to the white keys of the piano that would sound a (natural?) version of A minor, A B C D E F G A. First finger on B is First Position, C = Second, D = Third, E = Fourth, F = Fifth, G = Sixth, Octave A = Seventh. There are "black" notes between A and B, C/D, D/E, F/G, G/A that identify Half and the other intermediate positions.

I would rather identify Simandl positions by the fourth finger finishing scales on the G and D strings as each overlapping block of twelve notes created by fingers 1 2 4 progresses towards Seventh Position one "fret" at a time. I teach the easiest keys and scales first by cherry picking 1/2, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 5th Positions before back-tracking to tackle the harder, more boring ones. I do use the terms Home Base to describe 1/2 and 1st positions, Tuning Position for 3rd and Bottom of Neck for 4th and 5th.

 

[damonsmith]

Where does each start in relation to the note played by the first finger?/QUOTE]
Best to just think that way. Positions are really for absolute beginners. If you are already getting around the bass it will just muddy the waters.

 

[Bruce Calin]

There is a question I have asked myself many times and could use some input: Most of my students of all ages come to me with little or no proper instruction but are already playing in or expected to play in some ensemble, usually a school jazz group or orchestra. I have developed some of my own techniques and strategies, but am interested if any of you teachers have this same issue and how do you deal with it? Positions and similar issues are things I usually don't have time to address fully in these situations, so I must figure out how to compress the normal progression. For orchestra students it's even more tricky because of the bow, reading the parts, and the other orchestra issues. I'd like to know what strategies others use in these situations. Thanks in advance.

 

[damonsmith]

I tend to use the Simandl system, for the history. Half, 1 & 2. After that it is just about the notes and what fingering system is being used.

There is a question I have asked myself many times and could use some input: Most of my students of all ages come to me with little or no proper instruction but are already playing in or expected to play in some ensemble, usually a school jazz group or orchestra. I have developed some of my own techniques and strategies, but am interested if any of you teachers have this same issue and how do you deal with it? Positions and similar issues are things I usually don't have time to address fully in these situations, so I must figure out how to compress the normal progression. For orchestra students it's even more tricky because of the bow, reading the parts, and the other orchestra issues. I'd like to know what strategies others use in these situations. Thanks in advance.

 

[neilG]

There is a question I have asked myself many times and could use some input: Most of my students of all ages come to me with little or no proper instruction but are already playing in or expected to play in some ensemble, usually a school jazz group or orchestra. I have developed some of my own techniques and strategies, but am interested if any of you teachers have this same issue and how do you deal with it? Positions and similar issues are things I usually don't have time to address fully in these situations, so I must figure out how to compress the normal progression. For orchestra students it's even more tricky because of the bow, reading the parts, and the other orchestra issues. I'd like to know what strategies others use in these situations. Thanks in advance.

In my opinion, and in my teaching, there are no shortcuts. They have to buckle down and learn positions, whether you use Simandl or Vance/Rabbath positions. On the other instruments you can play more notes in the first-learned position, and the bass kids are behind from day one. Most grade school music teachers, bless them, are at a loss how to teach the bass, which is my polite way of saying they generally have no idea unless they are bassists. If you deal with kids from local schools and have a good rapport with the teachers, request that the first lessons on the bass at school are given by you. That bit of donated time (try to get paid) may save you from having to break bad habits when they get to you for lessons. I tried that when I was still recruiting MS students, and I think it paid off.

 

[Bruce Calin]

In my opinion, and in my teaching, there are no shortcuts. They have to buckle down and learn positions, whether you use Simandl or Vance/Rabbath positions. On the other instruments you can play more notes in the first-learned position, and the bass kids are behind from day one. Most grade school music teachers, bless them, are at a loss how to teach the bass, which is my polite way of saying they generally have no idea unless they are bassists. If you deal with kids from local schools and have a good rapport with the teachers, request that the first lessons on the bass at school are given by you. That bit of donated time (try to get paid) may save you from having to break bad habits when they get to you for lessons. I tried that when I was still recruiting MS students, and I think it paid off.

Sadly, by the time I get them it's often too late for that approach. More typical is the kid who plays trumpet or electric bass for jazz band or a fiddle player for orchestra and they're drafted into playing bass, or the adult who wants to play in a bluegrass band next week and has "messed around" enough with a bass he bought cheap online to develop hand discomfort and a lot of bad habits. When I do get a true beginner who(gasp!) actually has their own or access to a decent instrument it's a gift. I do have a decent relationship with most of the local school teachers and do try to recruit players early but the teachers have their own issues and problems that further complicate things or they think they know enough about the bass to teach it themselves which often ends badly. I describe myself as a booster for the bass and just want people who play it for whatever reason to have a positive experience. That often takes some creative thinking. I'm always open to new ideas.