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Double Bass Positions Explained

*fenderbass*

*fenderbass*

Dec 30, 2005
75
2
Wisconsin
#1
Hello,

I'm a converted slab player seeking a good explanation of how the positions work on a DB fingerboard.

I recently got Lew Berryman's book "Intonation Plus" to help me with my left hand technique and positioning. I have found it helpful but it really doesn't explain what is meant by the different positions on DB.

For example Lew says: "We will be using seven basic positions and five intermediate positions, in addition to thumb positions" Then it pretty much dives right in without much explanation as to where each position starts on the fingerboard and how they relate.

What are the seven basic positions and five intermediate? Where does each start in relation to the note played by the first finger?

I know this is a really basic concept, but I'm mostly selft taught. An explanation will help me make better use of this resource.

Thanks very much.
 
#3
They are all based on the left hand covering 1 full step - ex; C to D.
If the 4th finger falls on an accidental, such as Bb, C#, etc, it is a "half position" On a regular note, a numbered position.

Ab to Bb 1/2 position

A to B 1st position

Bb to C 2nd position

B to C# 2-1/2 position

C to D 3rd pos. Etc.......

7 positions - up to A have the 4th finger (or 3rd) falling on a 'normal' note
(B C D E F G A)
5 positions have the 4th (or 3rd up higher) falling on an accendental
(Bb C# D# F# and G#)

That's the good news - the bad news is I don't know of any advanced player that thinks in these positions. If the first finger falls on D (above the staff on the G), you tend to think "D position" or Eb pos. or Ab, etc. To think of the number of the position and then the notes, adds one mental step that is not needed after you pass through the intermediate level. In my first level book, "Practical Studies", I list both the traditional position number and also the lettered position.
Ex. 1/2 position - Ab position (same)
Tom Gale
ASODB.com
 
#5
Yes, Tom is right as well as an author of an extended method BUT, no one plays the Simandl and then gets a job in an Orchestra. It's a training method. It is just like in Karate or TaeKwonDo when you practice Forms or Katas. No one fights like that but they do train in many ways to learn movement.

I have just finished reading through Toms first book called 'Practical Studies for Double Bass'. I am also on page 10 or the next book of his in line called 'Melodic Foundation for the Double Bass'. His first book in my opinion is not a training method but another way of approaching the positions. It is only 30 pages with some introductions to the rest of his method in the last few pages of the book.

I think it would be a great method if it was as extensive as Simandl in all the keys and positions but it is more of an introduction to an idea. His 'D' or neck heel position is a great idea but one must play many many hours to be able to play strongly to utilize all this knowledge in 30 pages or less. I would recommend his book as a Simandl suppliment but finding a teacher that had been thru his book just like Simandl would be better.

I am on the second of the 5 books I purchased from him and I see my work ahead of me. Tom has done a great job putting these together and should be looked at by all serious players. I feel it was money well spent as even I picked up a few new ideas about playing and teaching myself and I have been at it for several decades. It's never too late to learn.

If you have time, read thru this other thread I started awhile ago. It mentions alot of material. http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=238945
 
#6
KSB - Ken Smith said:
Get Simandl Book I edited by Fren Zimmerman, orange cover. This is the main position book in the world. Most other books come after this.
Click to expand...


I just recently realized that there are two editions of this book. Great recommendation, Ken.

I have the Stuart Sankey version of Simandl II and when I used to play it for my teacher he would have a temper-tantrum because it was the "wrong" edition.
 
#7
EFischer1 said:
I just recently realized that there are two editions of this book. Great recommendation, Ken.

I have the Stuart Sankey version of Simandl II and when I used to play it for my teacher he would have a temper-tantrum because it was the "wrong" edition.
Click to expand...

Oops.. it's FreD Z. and not Fren... My fingers only work when a thick plank of Ebony is under them I guess. Typing is NOT one of my skills and this is seconded by spelling. Spell check didn't seem to mind the name spelling. I guess WORD doesn't play Bass...
 
#12
For a beginner, you could learn "seven positions and 5 half positions" and then start to look towards thumb position, or you could just learn 6 positions (four in advanced technique) total. You will learn the fingerboard faster, in a more connected and logical way. You will be able to play the whole bass, and if you practice the right stuff, you might get a symphony position.

It is in a lot of cases what everyone is starting young bassists with, Hal Robinson says he thinks about Rabbath everytime he plays his bass. Paul Ellison's students have been winning orchestra jobs for years, and he is a big proponent of the technique.

It is not, however, a new method, it has been around for several decades. It is not only simpler than simandl, it covers much more ground. I would say that it is inclusive of all the techniques you learn in simandl, book 3 starts all the scales with a scale that seems very simandl-like.

I would say hands down the etudes are much more interesting, the technique makes a lot more sense, and doesn't cripple your view of playing the bass in high positions because there are not 12 positions to learn before you get there. There are only 3.


In Texas, one of the all-state etudes this year is a Rabbath etude.

If you have not yet taken the time to study it, you ought to.

In your case, Ken, it will probably be hard to learn a new way to do every thing on the bass you have already learned through decades of experience.
 
#13
Alex Scott said:
In your case, Ken, it will probably be hard to learn a new way to do every thing on the bass you have already learned through decades of experience.
Click to expand...


Well the old dog new trick thing is part myth I think. I am still able to learn but to retraing my hands and brain with the limited time I have to play and practice is not that easy as you suggest.

I will in the future have a look at those methods but playing as long as I have and as much material as I have played I can say the Simandl is only a part of the way I play. I went thru the first Gale book in a few hours total over about a week and enjoyed some of his Ideas BUT, nothing was new to me except his teaching of the 4th position so early on with his neck heel position and so on. I will NOT drill any holes in my Bass to play like Rabbath and I DO prefer standing when I play with the Bow. These are some things that will not change easily if at all. I was a young player when the Sankey method came out using all 4 fingers. One of my early teachers was a student of Sankey and another a student of Zimmerman. My later teachers were Bill Blossom, (student then of John Shaeffer and later/currently, NY Phil) and Lew Norton, (NY Phil) who studied about 20 years earlier with the same teacher as Hal Robinson in Texas. I never lock and load. I prefer to stay loose like a goose as far as hand positions go.

Two things I have done more recently is Thumb Position in lower positions as shown in the Levinson and the use of the 3rd finger with or without a Pivot in place of the 2nd or 4th fingers in the lower positions other than Thumb. Not bad for an old dog huh?

Simandl to me is still like Boot Camp and I will always recommend it. No pain, no gain as they say in the old days.
 
#15
Techniques! Friends and Romans - read my lips. There ain't noth' new - just new combinations that make playing better and more interesting.
I have a bass method on the open (4 finger) technique pub. in Boston in 1887!! Almost all players coundn't use it because of the bass setup in the 1880's. (I posted an article on the setups - old and new - on the other Orchestra Forum but I don't think many knew what the hell I was saying - but thats OK.)
First - 12 positions are not needed because of modern usage. I can - starting on a D (G string), and using closed hand (Simandl), cover D, D# and E. Good so far. Using open hand ( 4 finger), I can cover D, D#, E and F in the same position. I can also toss in a pivot and cover a major third D, E, F#. With a reverse pivot, I can cover C, C#, D, E and the F# ( although C#, D, D# E, F, F# is easier) and still be in the same basic position. BIG WHOOP! The important thing to remember:
The music will determine the the technical challenge needed and the technical challenge will be met by your working knowledge of the several approaches needed. Shut off your computer and go practice.
TG
 
#16
KSB - Ken Smith said:
I will NOT drill any holes in my Bass to play like Rabbath and I DO prefer standing when I play with the Bow.
Click to expand...

Nothing against Sankey on my part, but if the makers of your antique basses had somebody like Rabbath to endorse their work I'm not sure they wouldn't drill a hole anywhere he asked in a heartbeat.

I wouldn't, anyway...especially if it's for an endpin, which effectively surrounds the hole with just more wood anyway.

Something like the Eggpin or some homemade bent endpin contraption is a good alternative for the purists who cringe at even a single hole being drilled in the block to give the strings something to hang onto.
 
#18
KSB - Ken Smith said:
Simandl to me is still like Boot Camp and I will always recommend it. No pain, no gain as they say in the old days.
Click to expand...

Simandl doesnt have the pain thing cornered :) Can get
every bit as much of a boot camp working thru George
Vance's books with one big difference... your playing will
actually sound like something... folk songs.. instead of
exercises. You do that while you learn the basics of the
bow and fingerboard. Oh, and for those that might not
know this, each vol of Vance comes with a CD that has
Rabbath playing the pieces, pretty impressive partner
to practice with :)

Besides, you can discover your inner child, playing
Twinkle Twinkle in thumb position :p
 
#19
jfv said:
Simandl doesnt have the pain thing cornered :) Can get
every bit as much of a boot camp working thru George
Vance's books with one big difference... your playing will
actually sound like something... folk songs.. instead of
exercises. You do that while you learn the basics of the
bow and fingerboard. Oh, and for those that might not
know this, each vol of Vance comes with a CD that has
Rabbath playing the pieces, pretty impressive partner
to practice with :)

Besides, you can discover your inner child, playing
Twinkle Twinkle in thumb position :p
Click to expand...

- Why pick? I have both books and many others. By not doing Simandl you:
a. miss a lot of tradition and history
b. you won't really know if your chosen "new" method is really better
 
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#20
Alex Scott said:
...the technique makes a lot more sense, and doesn't cripple your view of playing the bass in high positions because there are not 12 positions to learn before you get there. There are only 3.

I simply do not understand the idea that learning 12 positions can "cripple" anyone's bass playing, nor do I believe that one needs to "think" in terms of positions at all. I learned traditional Simandle positions when I was first starting. Today I don't even remember the position numbers except for HP, 1,2 and 4. It is all irrelevant once you have learned the finger board.

I am thinking about the note to be sounded, and what note leads up to it, or what note follows it, when I have time to plan a fingering for a phrase. When I am sight reading I just follow my fingers which have (hopefully) been trained to find the right notes even if a shift has been bungled. C on the G string is the same wether it is stopped with the first, second or fourth finger. (or for that matter with the third finger, if you are so inclined).

I don't think about postions, but about the easiest or most efficient way to tie the notes in a phrase together.
Click to expand...
 

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