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Practical Preamp / DI Pedal Features

bucephylus

bucephylus

Supporting Member
Aug 18, 2002
12,454
18,900
Central Ohio
#1
ASIDE from “tone,” there are one or two features on preamp / DI pedals, which I am finding to be essential for live soundstages. Pretty mundane features; but, oddly it seems a vast majority of the products in this space don’t offer them.

1) Line level output. Most SE’s I run into at my live gigs are looking for line level outputs. Can they throw that buffer switch to accommodate mic level? Possibly; but, time pressures normally prevent that conversation. A best case would be to offer switchable Line / Mic level outputs on the pedal, and let the player handle the send level. But, AFAIK, not a single bass preamp pedal offers this feature. Yes, most boards have it. No, most SE’s tend to miss it. Mic level is probably better for ultra clean studio work. We need both. As it stands, I need two different pedals for those two signal chains, live vs studio.

2) SEPARATE volume controls for the DI send and the unbalanced preamp send. A few pedals do offer this feature; but, it is a vast minority, which significantly reduces options. I fail to understand why this isn’t standard. Having one of those output levels dependent on the other is a complete fail for my gigs.

A useful preamp / DI needs to distribute signals to two different soundstages. Separate controls tailored to the needs of those two targets are required. We tend to focus on tone; but, great tone isn’t useful to me, if I can’t send it as a practical signal to the places it needs to go.

EOR
 
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#2
bucephylus said:
ASIDE from “tone,” there are one or two features on preamp / DI pedals, which I am finding to be essential for live soundstages. Pretty mundane features; but, oddly it seems a vast majority of the products in this space don’t offer them.

1) Line level output. Most SE’s I run into at my live gigs are looking for line level outputs. Can they throw that buffer switch to accommodate mic level? Possibly; but, time pressures normally prevent that conversation. A best case would be to offer switchable Line / Mic level outputs on the pedal, and let the player handle the send level. But, AFAIK, not a single bass preamp pedal offers this feature. Yes, most boards have it. No, most SE’s tend to miss it. Mic level is probably better for ultra clean studio work. We need both. As it stands, I need two different pedals for those two signal chains, live vs studio.

2) SEPARATE volume controls for the DI send and the unbalanced preamp send. A few pedals do offer this feature; but, it is a vast minority, which significantly reduces options. I fail to understand why this isn’t standard. Having one of those output levels dependent on the other is a complete fail for my gigs.

A useful preamp / DI needs to distribute signals to two different soundstages. Separate controls tailored to the needs of those two targets are required. We tend to focus on tone; but, great tone isn’t useful to me, if I can’t send it as a practical signal to the places it needs to go.

EOR
Click to expand...
I find it odd that the sound guy is 1)expecting a line level and 2)simply can't spare the 30 seconds to set a level. I expect a DI box / mic level when I run sound. Most pre's have an XLR/DI out built in that is mic level as do many amps. Its extremely rare to not have that. As for levels, Basses vary wildly in their output levels. I need to set the input gain regardless so the notion that they don't have time makes no sense. Its not really optional. I will be doing that anyway. I disagree with your basic premise
 
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#3
How did we ever make music without these essential features? We must be mad. Mad, I tell you!

But, to offer a point: if you see the need for these features, why not do the smart thing and build pedals like that? You'd make a killing based on your assumptions, because your competitors are too stupid to do it, apparently.
 
#5
TheArchitect said:
I find it odd that the sound guy is 1)expecting a line level and 2)simply can't spare the 30 seconds to set a level. I expect a DI box / mic level when I run sound. Most pre's have an XLR/DI out built in that is mic level as do many amps. Its extremely rare to not have that. As for levels, Basses vary wildly in their output levels. I need to set the input gain regardless so the notion that they don't have time makes no sense. Its not really optional. I will be doing that anyway. I disagree with your basic premise
Click to expand...
I’m purely relating my experiences with the vast majority of SE’s on my gigs throughout Ohio. Some of these are 9 or 10 piece bands at multi-event stages; summer festivals etc.

So, for example, my Demeter Jensen DI tends to lead to a protracted sound check. The Tech 21 Sansamp gets immediate thumbs up.

But, feel free to impugn me for something I have no control over. Obviously I’m stupid.
 
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#7
Perhaps, to clarify, I’ve been using the Shift Line preamp, which has the separate level controls, and more recently a couple of the Sushi Box preamps, which also have that feature. They are working ok.

I was simply reflecting on a practical aspect I have found over the past year at my gigs. It is what it is. Possibly I’ve just run into difficult SE’s. I’m just trying to eat the job done.
 
#11
1) How are they running all the mics on stage if Line only is required?
Adjust the Gain knob at the mixer.

2) Adjust the Gain on the amp head or whatever you plug the Send into.

Not seeing a problem.
This is the same as using a Passive DI Box, the Through and XLR are the same signal split. Passive DI boxes have never had both signals adjustable, yet are the live stage and studio standard.

All DI boxes, even with a Pre Amp are just signal splitters. Adjust the Gain at the respective location your signal is sent into.
 
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#12
I’ve never run into a situation where my DI wasn’t welcome, and gain setting should be something the engineer does first on every input. FWIW, I run an ampless rig based on a Bergantino SuperPre and while I’ve not needed the features you describe, it believe it’d do what you need. While not cheap, it’s competitive with other similar devices that offer less functionality and simply sounds amazing. And Jim stands behind his products with superb customer support. You could do worse…

YMMV
 
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#14
S-Bigbottom said:
1) How are they running all the mics on stage if Line only is required?
Adjust the Gain knob at the mixer.

2) Adjust the Gain on the amp head or whatever you plug the Send into.

Not seeing a problem.
This is the same as using a Passive DI Box, the Through and XLR are the same signal split. Passive DI boxes have never had both signals adjustable, yet are the live stage and studio standard.

All DI boxes, even with a Pre Amp are just signal splitters. Adjust the Gain at the respective location your signal is sent into.
Click to expand...
Come now, that can't possibly be true!! The OP said so!
 
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#16
I have played bass for almost 25 years now, in almost every venue size: from pub/club with couple of hundred people, to small festival or club with thousand people, to festivals of all sizes (once even for about 40-50k people).
My signal was taken to mixer by provided DIs mostly, sometimes backline or my personal amp XLR out, sometimes XLR from preamp on my pedalboard. Never once did anyone have comment about my signal output strength.
Not saying OP idea is stupid or anything, just sharing that in my wide experience it was never an issue. But in general, I always agree it's good to have flexible equipment.
 
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#17
bucephylus said:
I’m purely relating my experiences with the vast majority of SE’s on my gigs throughout Ohio. Some of these are 9 or 10 piece bands at multi-event stages; summer festivals etc.

So, for example, my Demeter Jensen DI tends to lead to a protracted sound check. The Tech 21 Sansamp gets immediate thumbs up.

But, feel free to impugn me for something I have no control over. Obviously I’m stupid.
Click to expand...
I’m guessing that the Tech 21 Sansamp is gear that the SE’s are familiar with. When I used to gig at different venues, I would always catch the sound person checking out the gear being used as we would setup. When it’s familiar gear to them, it makes their job a lot easier.
 
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#18
RattleSnack said:
I have played bass for almost 25 years now, in almost every venue size: from pub/club with couple of hundred people, to small festival or club with thousand people, to festivals of all sizes (once even for about 40-50k people).
My signal was taken to mixer by provided DIs mostly, sometimes backline or my personal amp XLR out, sometimes XLR from preamp on my pedalboard. Never once did anyone have comment about my signal output strength.
Not saying OP idea is stupid or anything, just sharing that in my wide experience it was never an issue. But in general, I always agree it's good to have flexible equipment.
Click to expand...
I've been playing gigs since the early 80s and have the same experience. Even when using a Grace M103 channel strip which has gain structure designed for studio integration at +4. I eventually sold it because of that awkwardness, even though it sounded fantastic (killer low end) and no FOH engineers complained. These days I use their M303S and I get a lot of the same awesome sound quality, but choose the front end before it. I set my gain structure to be optimum and then have options for controlling the loudness of my amps after that. Or just go direct with IEMs and no amp.

I think that maybe the issue here isn't with the gain structure of the Demeter, but with the fact that in my experience, Demeter preamps sometime deliver a signal that needs a lot of work, especially in getting a full low end. I had a friend who used one as an alternative to an Alembic preamp and it didn't deliver similar sound quality. Just my 02¢, worth exactly that.
 
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#19
Sigh.

Either my first post was unclear, or many of those posting are choosing to be dramatic.

Look folks, all I was relating is that my recent experience with various SE’s has been that they have the instrument, or at least bass, DI input on their boards set for Line level input. Why? I suppose because most of the bands they are mixing have bass players with line level DI sends?

So, what happens when I’ve sent a mic level send is that I get a blank look when they first check the bass; which seems to have no Line level signal.

Do they just have to throw the Mic / Line switch on the input? Of course. No biggie, right? Well, when they are trying to check 9 instrumental inputs and 5 or 7 mics, as well as setting various monitor feeds etc etc; well, I’m just trying to avoid that momentary confusion. It’s called cooperation.

Since these SE’s are busy mixing other bands, I possibly mistakenly thought this might be not uncommon. But, perhaps, Ohio SE’s are just weird / clueless. I don’t think so; but, whatever.

Or maybe my sound is bad. Or, maybe it’s just amusing to jerk someone’s chains on TB these days.

Don’t think my Demeter sounds bad. I prefer it to my Alembic for Fenders; but, YMMV.

Have a nice day.
 

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