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practice PA squealing

when my band has practice we like to play loud. the thing is, our pa system has been squealing every time we go to turn it up.

I believe we have a Yamaha STAGEPAS 300 Portable PA System. it seems that it could get loud enough, but every time we try to "push" it, it starts getting feedback and squeals. there are notches, or marks, on each volume knob we cant get past without getting feedback.

the speakers have been sitting right beneath the mics (in front of the mic stands), tilted up towards the singer.

as far as mics go, our main one is a Heil Sound PR-20 Dynamic, and we also have a shure pg48, and an sm57.
we do not have pa stands for the cabs.

im assuming this has something to do with speaker position.

any hints as to what our problem could be?
 
Uh yeah, you don't want the speakers facing the same direction as the mics. Speakers should be facing away from the band. If you need monitoring, buy a monitor and sit it on the floor facing the singer but speakers should not be directly facing microphones.

whats the difference between the speakers we are using and monitors?
 
You have the same problem I have had every time practice is in a small room with loud volume. Regardless of where you point the speakers, if the microphone can 'hear' the speakers at a certain level, you will have feedback. Volume and space is the problem, too much of one and too little of another. You can EQ the frequencies that feed back to maximize the level where feedback occurs, but eventually with enough volume the feedback will happen at virtually all frequencies. What it it trying to tell you is 'turn down'.
 
headphones or bust, eh?

Well, not really...you will just have to find the best speaker position, EQ settings and sound level you can and learn to live with it.

Drums are usually the problem. If you have a slammer on drums that can't back off his volume, then he will drown out the band and wonder why you can't just 'turn up' to meet him.

If you can find a practice space that is larger, the problem will be less. Some sound deadening may help too...hang some blankets on the walls, or anything that will help absorb the sound.
 
Regardless of where you point the speakers, if the microphone can 'hear' the speakers at a certain level, you will have feedback. . .You can EQ the frequencies that feed back to maximize the level where feedback occurs, but eventually with enough volume the feedback will happen at virtually all frequencies.

^This. Any system w/ monitors and open mics will have a max. stage volume before feedback.

You can squeeze more useable-volume-before-feedback out of a rehearsal system in a few ways:

1. With the gear you have...
  • Keep using the speakers as monitors. (Turning them away from the band in a rehearsal room will just make it harder to hear the vocals.) With all three of your mics, it looks like the best feedback rejection occurs at 180º from the capsule, so keep the monitors behind the mic. Angle the mics so the null point points down into the monitor speaker.
  • Find out if one of the mics is more prone to feedback (my guess: the PG48). Give that to the singer with the loudest voice, so that you can run the channel w/ lower gain.
  • You can't eq much with the PA you have, but as much as possible, try cutting the low a little (given high room volume, the low end may be adding rumble from the drums into the monitoring system, making it harder to hear vocals). Otherwise, flatten out the eq as much as possible. (Given your mics and PA, this might be different from setting each channel's treble knob at noon. You'll have to listen a bit hear to trim peaky treble.)
  • Cut the reverb entirely. It's easier to hear pitch and articulation on dry vocals.
2. If you can add gear, I'd start in this order. . .
  • Mics. I'd look for hypercardoid mics (all else equal, these will give you better feedback rejection, although they will also require your singers to stay more directly on-mic). Tight budget? Replace your weakest mic first, as this will be feeding back first. BTW, some folks prefer running one type of vocal mic for all the singers (that way, the frequency peaks for all mics are the same, so it's easier to clamp down on feedback at the system level). That might work for you, but in other cases intelligibility-before-feedback improves when you match the mic choices to the qualities of each singer's voice. (BTW, not all mics have the best rejection at 180º, so if you replace mics pay attention to the response chart when deciding where to place the mic relative to the monitors.)
  • EQ. Glancing at the Stagpas 300, I don't see that it offers master insert points for outboard eq. If I'm just overlooking this feature, patch in a parametric to tame the frequencies most prone to feeding back. Ringing out the room this way will let you bring up the overall volume of the monitoring system. You can also use the parametric the set a hi-pass (low-cut) filter to better keep the low-frequency mud out of your vocal monitoring system. (Obviously, you could use a graphic eq in place of the parametric, although the parametric would be my first choice.)
  • Headphone monitoring. You don't need wireless in-ears for rehearsal room monitoring. Closed-ear headphones run from a flexible headphone amp can save everybody's ears. However, a good mixer and decent (multi-source) headphone amp are really the ticket here. Otherwise, everyone in the band gets the same headphone mix. Unfortunately, it doesn't look like the Stagepas mixer will let you set up different aux mixes
  • Flatter board/speakers. Now you're looking at spending some money. The better your preamps, though, the clearer (and often flatter) the sound. It makes a difference. Similarly, if your speakers are uneven and peaky, they can be less intelligible and/or more prone to invite feedback.
3. Or, as other have suggested, make the commitment to the overall band sound and lower the instrument volume. With some players, that's the obvious and assumed default. With other players, it's somewhere between unthinkable and merely heretical. I know what I prefer, but YMMV.
 
this is 15 years or more of highly condensed, dense sound advice. ignore it at your peril. pay close attention to number 3, it's worth a shot (or even a couple of shots). later, ron

^This. Any system w/ monitors and open mics will have a max. stage volume before feedback.

You can squeeze more useable-volume-before-feedback out of a rehearsal system in a few ways:

1. With the gear you have...
  • Keep using the speakers as monitors. (Turning them away from the band in a rehearsal room will just make it harder to hear the vocals.) With all three of your mics, it looks like the best feedback rejection occurs at 180º from the capsule, so keep the monitors behind the mic. Angle the mics so the null point points down into the monitor speaker.
  • Find out if one of the mics is more prone to feedback (my guess: the PG48). Give that to the singer with the loudest voice, so that you can run the channel w/ lower gain.
  • You can't eq much with the PA you have, but as much as possible, try cutting the low a little (given high room volume, the low end may be adding rumble from the drums into the monitoring system, making it harder to hear vocals). Otherwise, flatten out the eq as much as possible. (Given your mics and PA, this might be different from setting each channel's treble knob at noon. You'll have to listen a bit hear to trim peaky treble.)
  • Cut the reverb entirely. It's easier to hear pitch and articulation on dry vocals.
2. If you can add gear, I'd start in this order. . .
  • Mics. I'd look for hypercardoid mics (all else equal, these will give you better feedback rejection, although they will also require your singers to stay more directly on-mic). Tight budget? Replace your weakest mic first, as this will be feeding back first. BTW, some folks prefer running one type of vocal mic for all the singers (that way, the frequency peaks for all mics are the same, so it's easier to clamp down on feedback at the system level). That might work for you, but in other cases intelligibility-before-feedback improves when you match the mic choices to the qualities of each singer's voice. (BTW, not all mics have the best rejection at 180º, so if you replace mics pay attention to the response chart when deciding where to place the mic relative to the monitors.)
  • EQ. Glancing at the Stagpas 300, I don't see that it offers master insert points for outboard eq. If I'm just overlooking this feature, patch in a parametric to tame the frequencies most prone to feeding back. Ringing out the room this way will let you bring up the overall volume of the monitoring system. You can also use the parametric the set a hi-pass (low-cut) filter to better keep the low-frequency mud out of your vocal monitoring system. (Obviously, you could use a graphic eq in place of the parametric, although the parametric would be my first choice.)
  • Headphone monitoring. You don't need wireless in-ears for rehearsal room monitoring. Closed-ear headphones run from a flexible headphone amp can save everybody's ears. However, a good mixer and decent (multi-source) headphone amp are really the ticket here. Otherwise, everyone in the band gets the same headphone mix. Unfortunately, it doesn't look like the Stagepas mixer will let you set up different aux mixes
  • Flatter board/speakers. Now you're looking at spending some money. The better your preamps, though, the clearer (and often flatter) the sound. It makes a difference. Similarly, if your speakers are uneven and peaky, they can be less intelligible and/or more prone to invite feedback.
3. Or, as other have suggested, make the commitment to the overall band sound and lower the instrument volume. With some players, that's the obvious and assumed default. With other players, it's somewhere between unthinkable and merely heretical. I know what I prefer, but YMMV.
 
Turn down.

thats the thing. its not that simple. we practice in a small room with acoustic blocks and sound proofing everywhere. the guitarists use 2x12s and half stacks, and the drummer is really not playing that loud. even at low volumes, it gets pretty loud. we just need something to keep up with what we are using. whether that be new gear, a different mic-ing technique, or other.
 
You definitely need a better PA then a Stagepas if you "Play loud".

Monitors are on the floor, facing the back of the mics. Mains are out front, not facing the mics.

Ditch the powered mixer altogether and either get powered speakers or power amps and a decent mixer.
 
The problem is most likely the position of your speakers (too close to the mics - probably have bleeding underneath the mics) First step is to move the monitors about 2-3 ft in front of the mic stand - not at the base. You also have poor equipment + close quarters is recipe for feedback. PG series microphones are just toys- they are the worst in the "volume before feedback" category. I would upgrade that one to a SM58 if I were you. But assuming you dont have the money to upgrade anything else and the walls are padded - do what you can to get the speakers away from the mics. The last thing you need to do is experiment. Put the volume right above the threshold and Have just the drummer go nuts and then just the singer, then guitarits - try to single out the source causing the feedback. Move the mic around angled slightly away from the guitarist and drummer - most likely its the singer but it could be the combo of everything at once gets in the mic creating the looping. FYI- all this will still only get you a notch or two higher