Heifetzbass
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- Feb 6, 2004
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Double Bass PRACTICING
- Thread starter G-force
- Start date
Wow this is great, I'm glad this thread was started.
I've been playing bass for 12 years, seriously for 3, and I've been feeling that my practice has been very inefficient and ineffective. For the past few months i've been trying to restructure and re-focus my practice with a little bit of results here and there but still not what i've been hoping for.
I'm really envious of those of you who say you can practice 5 hours a day, I wish i could do that. I'm a 'student' now.. well i'm transferring schools and working in the meantime, Every day i kick myself and say "I wish i didn't have to work so i could practice" At the end of the day i'm soo exhausted, i'm lucky if i can get in two hours. Next fall i'll be a full time music student, hopefully i'll have a lot of practice time, but i'm afraid i'll get bogged down with rehearsals and silly coursework.
Anyway enough blabbering, here's a question i've had for a while and i'm hoping someone can give me some ideas:
Everyone says they practice 'scales'. My question is how do you practice scales, Say starting with E major, 3 octaves up, 3 octaves down, move to F, and repeat. I've used some variation on that such as playing them multiple times at different speeds or slurring bows or whatnot but I still feel like this approach gets old fast and also quickly becomes a sort of mindless technical process and by the time i get up to Eb I feel like i learned nothing on the last few scales.
Does anyone have any creative progressions for moving through practicing scales? hopefully something with well defined pattern that encompasses different bowings and or modes and the like?
Thanks,
Jeff
I've been playing bass for 12 years, seriously for 3, and I've been feeling that my practice has been very inefficient and ineffective. For the past few months i've been trying to restructure and re-focus my practice with a little bit of results here and there but still not what i've been hoping for.
I'm really envious of those of you who say you can practice 5 hours a day, I wish i could do that. I'm a 'student' now.. well i'm transferring schools and working in the meantime, Every day i kick myself and say "I wish i didn't have to work so i could practice" At the end of the day i'm soo exhausted, i'm lucky if i can get in two hours. Next fall i'll be a full time music student, hopefully i'll have a lot of practice time, but i'm afraid i'll get bogged down with rehearsals and silly coursework.
Anyway enough blabbering, here's a question i've had for a while and i'm hoping someone can give me some ideas:
Everyone says they practice 'scales'. My question is how do you practice scales, Say starting with E major, 3 octaves up, 3 octaves down, move to F, and repeat. I've used some variation on that such as playing them multiple times at different speeds or slurring bows or whatnot but I still feel like this approach gets old fast and also quickly becomes a sort of mindless technical process and by the time i get up to Eb I feel like i learned nothing on the last few scales.
Does anyone have any creative progressions for moving through practicing scales? hopefully something with well defined pattern that encompasses different bowings and or modes and the like?
Thanks,
Jeff
Well, I usually start with C major and do all my scales 3 octaves (and 2 octaves for 2 that my fingerboard wont reach). Then I go through my Flats. To be honest, I don't do my minors as much as I should, but I try and get 2 or 3 random minor scales in a day.
To be honest, there isn't much you can do to spice up scales other than changing the tempo, rythms, and bowing. But, scales and arpegios arn't really supposed to be fun. If the get to easy then you should go faster. Scales is just something you kinda have to go through daily to build a command of the fingerboard.
Good Luck
Scales can be plenty fun. Just wait until you prepare for an audition and play the same solo and 20 or so excerpts throughout the day and then you can't wait to practice scales.
I use a technique my teacher calls whole note to 32nd note. So I start with F Major at a tempo of quarter=60 and do rhythms starting with whole notes, then triplet whole notes, half notes, triplet half notes, quarters, triplet quarters, eighths, triple eights, 16ths, quintulets, sextuplets, and 32nd notes. As I finish the scale I go up chromatically and go a certain number of clicks faster until I end back with E Major at 92 beats a minute.
Also, I use Hal Robinson's Boardwalkin' every day. This has some good patterns that can be fun if you have fun with them. I do some of my teacher's scale strokes (he has 54 of them) and I get my fingerings from Levinson's School of Agility. I don't do this method everyday. Sometimes I do just Boardwalkin and sometimes just School of Agility. I try to vary it every day so I'm always working on the same things in different ways.
I use a technique my teacher calls whole note to 32nd note. So I start with F Major at a tempo of quarter=60 and do rhythms starting with whole notes, then triplet whole notes, half notes, triplet half notes, quarters, triplet quarters, eighths, triple eights, 16ths, quintulets, sextuplets, and 32nd notes. As I finish the scale I go up chromatically and go a certain number of clicks faster until I end back with E Major at 92 beats a minute.
Also, I use Hal Robinson's Boardwalkin' every day. This has some good patterns that can be fun if you have fun with them. I do some of my teacher's scale strokes (he has 54 of them) and I get my fingerings from Levinson's School of Agility. I don't do this method everyday. Sometimes I do just Boardwalkin and sometimes just School of Agility. I try to vary it every day so I'm always working on the same things in different ways.
I apologize if I'm getting off topic from the original poster. I hope i'm not.
Thanks Sibass89, This is more along the lines of what I was talking about.
I guess i'll give another example of what i'm thinking of. At the university I just left we had these things called "Scale Packages" which came to be the bane of my existance however, they are more 'fun' than just - scale up, scale down, up 1/2 step and repeat - and I think you learn a lot more from something organized like this. Here is the contents of a 'Scale Package':
(everything is 2 octaves up then down)
Major Scale - 3 notes per bow
Melodic Minor - 2 notes per bow
Harmonic Minor - 3 notes per bow
(the rest are arpeggios)
i - 2 notes per bow
I - 3 notes per bow
vi6 - 4 notes per bow
IV64 - one note per bow
iv64 - 3 notes per bow
io7 - four notes per bow
I7 - four notes per bow ending on the iv
Sorry it's kind of difficult to write out the chord symbols in here, but you get the idea.
This sequence is continuous, the end note of one sequence is the start note of the next. If your really ambitious you can start the sequence over on the IV now.
I find a method like this makes the scale playing a little more 'fun' and more relevant. Does anyone else have any other methods like this?
Thanks Sibass89, This is more along the lines of what I was talking about.
I guess i'll give another example of what i'm thinking of. At the university I just left we had these things called "Scale Packages" which came to be the bane of my existance
however, they are more 'fun' than just - scale up, scale down, up 1/2 step and repeat - and I think you learn a lot more from something organized like this. Here is the contents of a 'Scale Package':(everything is 2 octaves up then down)
Major Scale - 3 notes per bow
Melodic Minor - 2 notes per bow
Harmonic Minor - 3 notes per bow
(the rest are arpeggios)
i - 2 notes per bow
I - 3 notes per bow
vi6 - 4 notes per bow
IV64 - one note per bow
iv64 - 3 notes per bow
io7 - four notes per bow
I7 - four notes per bow ending on the iv
Sorry it's kind of difficult to write out the chord symbols in here, but you get the idea.
This sequence is continuous, the end note of one sequence is the start note of the next. If your really ambitious you can start the sequence over on the IV now.
I find a method like this makes the scale playing a little more 'fun' and more relevant. Does anyone else have any other methods like this?
IMO, one would be much better off practicing NO MORE then 2 hours at a time. When I had enough time to practice 3+ hours, I found that I would frequently become restless and careless after 3 hours, and the session would quickly become counter-productive. One of the most important things a bassist needs to cultivate is the ability to play with complete relaxation. When a beginning bassist tries to "hack" their way through difficult passages, I believe that they are setting themselves up for disaster, as they are "learning" to play with stress.
So in short, a focused, well thought out 1-2 hr. session is far more beneficial then these nonsensical 5+ hour sessions, IMO.
Then again, if you have mastered total efficiency and relaxation and/or are completely invincible to pain, more power to you.
So in short, a focused, well thought out 1-2 hr. session is far more beneficial then these nonsensical 5+ hour sessions, IMO.
Then again, if you have mastered total efficiency and relaxation and/or are completely invincible to pain, more power to you.
I kind of agree with mahlerbass, but Rabbath says three hours is the most you should practice a day, because after that amount of time you become counterproductive by losing focus and concentration on what you're playing. Basically, you should practice 2 hours of scales and warmups, and 1 hour for solo and orchestra pieces.
It´s kind of strange having someone from the Oslo Philarmonic here on Talkbass asking for practise-advices. Those guys are THE cats around here I just started playing classical bass a month ago, or something, so surely I have no experience to share on this particular subject.
But be sure to let me know if you ever do a solo recital!
I just started playing classical bass a month ago, or something, so surely I have no experience to share on this particular subject. But be sure to let me know if you ever do a solo recital!
It´s kind of strange having someone from the Oslo Philarmonic here on Talkbass asking for practise-advices. Those guys are THE cats around here
But be sure to let me know if you ever do a solo recital!
Nice comment, But I'm not dead yet so I can still learn more.
Jeg skal si ifra når jeg har konsert, det blir om et år....
I actually have a opposite view.
When I was playing high school ball. The coach made sure we were tired be cause he knew thats when we start to make mistakes. What you have to do is to focus when your tired and start to make mistakes. You have to be extra careful. If you are, you will get almost double the gain than just regular practicing. I think if you practice for a long time, then start focusing even harder to make sure you hit things perfect.
Like coach used to say, anyone can run hard in the first quarter, it is the 4rth quarter that you need to be ready to go.
I guess you can call this getting in playing shape.
I'm not so sure about practicing until you make mistakes, so that you can try to focus on not making them. I've heard from more than one source that your peak focus time is about 45-50 minutes, when taking a short break (10 minutes or so) recharges you. Also, no matter how relaxed you are, playing non-stop for multiple hours on an instrument like bass is asking for trouble. I've had long playing days (for me 6 hours at most) but they were always broken up into 2 or 3 sessions with breaks while practicing. Sure, we can up our endurance, strength, and ability to stay relaxed, but the bass is a large beast and our bodies weren't exactly designed with playing it all day in mind. That said, we're not just technicians trying to play with perfect rhythm and pitch. We're musicians before anything else, and playing all day 'till I'm wiped out is not the best way to give the most I can give. But hey, if you want to build up big bass biceps, go for it, and let me know how that works for you. I would be genuinely very curious!
That is a good take.
But, we make mistakes because we are tired and get lazy after a good period of time. If you can focus and stay musical through that period of tiredness, then think how you'll be when your not tired.
The main reason for taking breaks is to avoid injuries to the hand. But, when thats not a issue you should keep going.
Yea, playing when tired can be counter productive, but it can also be the most production you'll get all day. It is just how you handle it. If you aren't up for it (it is ok to be) then you should stop for a while. If you are, it is going to be harder, but the results are so much sweeter.
That is extremely ignorant, do you even play double bass? Or any instrument for that matter? Playing an instrument can hardly be compared to football in the respect that the longer you go, the better you become. Playing bass is very mentally demanding and once you start making careless mistakes because of exhaustion(mental and/or physical), you should stop so you don't incorporate those mistakes into playing.
I saw a bass instructional video a few years ago (It might have been Rabbath, but I didn't know who Rabbath was at the time so I'm not sure.) Anyway, whoever it was said something like this:
An orchestral player typically performs for about two hours. That being the case, they should structure their practice to develop two hours of endurance. Practicing for one hour will get you good for a one hour performance, but your playing will deteriorate in the second hour if you are not used to playing that long. (I think this is the point behind the sports analogy given above.)
That said, the other aspect of practicing is to improve as a player. If you practice 5 hours per day, and do it effectively, it seems you will improve faster than if you practice 2 hours per day. But if you do it in one 5 hour session, and lose focus, you are not practicing effectively and may be ingraining bad habits. If that is the case it seems breaking it into two shorter sessions would make sense: retaining focus for the full practice time, and gaining the benefit of such intensive study.
Some thoughts, for what they're worth,
Jim
An orchestral player typically performs for about two hours. That being the case, they should structure their practice to develop two hours of endurance. Practicing for one hour will get you good for a one hour performance, but your playing will deteriorate in the second hour if you are not used to playing that long. (I think this is the point behind the sports analogy given above.)
That said, the other aspect of practicing is to improve as a player. If you practice 5 hours per day, and do it effectively, it seems you will improve faster than if you practice 2 hours per day. But if you do it in one 5 hour session, and lose focus, you are not practicing effectively and may be ingraining bad habits. If that is the case it seems breaking it into two shorter sessions would make sense: retaining focus for the full practice time, and gaining the benefit of such intensive study.
Some thoughts, for what they're worth,
Jim
Jim -
I couldn't agree more. I start off every morning with my warmups - slow bow exercises, shifting exercises, and some spiccato exercises with etudes. Then I go to class and I'll come back after lunch and do about 2 1/2 to 3 hours (with 2 breaks) and do my scales first, then excerpts, and then at night I will go back for about an hour sometimes 2 and work on my solos. This is much easier for me to do because I am in school and my schedule is pretty much focused around practice time.
I couldn't agree more. I start off every morning with my warmups - slow bow exercises, shifting exercises, and some spiccato exercises with etudes. Then I go to class and I'll come back after lunch and do about 2 1/2 to 3 hours (with 2 breaks) and do my scales first, then excerpts, and then at night I will go back for about an hour sometimes 2 and work on my solos. This is much easier for me to do because I am in school and my schedule is pretty much focused around practice time.
You're making me really jealous here, man. That's a great routine.
I do it like this: after I get the last kid to bed, I fight the urge to collapse. Then it's: warmup (long tones, scales, vomit) - etude - Sevcik exercises - Zimmerman bowing - orchestral rep - solos. ALl indeterminate time, the whole thing adds up to about two hours.
Is everybody out there timing themselves? Do you all focus on the time spent on each topic, or do you just try to hit every topic?
From a physiological standpoint, practicing an instrument and practicing a sport are entirely different endeavors.
Playing football, say, requires one to learn to perform a skill while physically exhausted, as would happen in a game situation. So a coach tiring out the players before practicing the skill is appropriate.
Playing one's instrument requires learning fine coordination between the nervous and musculoskeletal systems. When those systems tire, our bodies recruit different or larger muscles than those we are trying to develop. Once that happens, we are no longer making progress in learning to play a particular passage properly.
Our bodies can learn over time to increase the endurance of the neuro-muscular link, but once our play starts to get at all sloppy during practice it is fruitless to continue.
From this standpoint, it is better to practice more often for shorter periods of time.
Tom
Playing football, say, requires one to learn to perform a skill while physically exhausted, as would happen in a game situation. So a coach tiring out the players before practicing the skill is appropriate.
Playing one's instrument requires learning fine coordination between the nervous and musculoskeletal systems. When those systems tire, our bodies recruit different or larger muscles than those we are trying to develop. Once that happens, we are no longer making progress in learning to play a particular passage properly.
Our bodies can learn over time to increase the endurance of the neuro-muscular link, but once our play starts to get at all sloppy during practice it is fruitless to continue.
From this standpoint, it is better to practice more often for shorter periods of time.
Tom
I try not to time myself, I just go for it and try to get everything done. That little schedule I have is not an absolute. It actually varies quite often depending on what I have to learn and what is coming. For example, I have my boards/juries coming up soon so I've been focusing a lot more on my solos and a couple of excerpts so that I'm as prepared as well as I am able for my boards.
Not neccesarily trying to tire myself. I am just saying that when you start to get tired, you should play on a little bit anyway. Because it takes more focus to not make the mistakes that you normaly would. If you can focus harder to not make mistakes, then they wont go into your playing.
