Praise & Worship amps / IEM's

[darwin-bass]

I use IEM exclusively at two churches. The smaller one uses no click track, the bigger one does along with backing pads and a guide track ("chorus 2, 3, 4"). Custom IEMs cost me about $400 but I don't have a gigging amp so I'm OK with that.

I used to have an amp at church. Genz Benz with a 210 cab. Then Rumble 100. But we went IEM and silent stage and sound in the house improved so no way we're going back. I hear the band better and hear myself better with IEM than I did with an amp.

 

[fauxtoe]

Stated as simply as possible, do what the current bass players are doing.

If the bands are running backing tracks, you can be 99% certain they're running click tracks to keep things in sync. You will have to use IEMs, and an on-stage amp will be useless if not downright unwelcome.

Communicate with the churches' tech teams right now and ask them what they do, how they do it, and what each player is expected to bring. Do it via email, and when you load up for the drive there, bring a printed copy of their response, so if they squawk about something you "forgot" to bring, you can produce that email proving you satisfied the requirements.

This is the only reply that hits the nail on the head.

It's not about you, it's about what they need and then you figure out how to make it work for you. If you want to build a setup based on their parameters then it makes it a lot easier to do so when you know what you'll be working with. I'd buy absolutely noting until you've at the very least had a conversation with them and more importantly, have been accepted to join the team.

With that said, if you are all using IEM's then forget about an amp and cab setup. You won't hear it anyways with your ears in. I've used an Eich Bassboard for many years that I've stood on and that provides all the low end one could ever want in an IEM only situation. That's about the only way you're going to feel anything on a quiet stage unless you're just about sitting on the subs.

 

[Rayjay]

We use IEMs and a silent stage. Generally speaking I hate only going through the house because subs are a tone killer, but when I run FOH I bump the bass EQ in the 600-800 hz range to actually hear the notes for a nice change of pace.

 

[prndltech]

Amps? Are those the things in the black racks backstage that FOH uses?

 

[KJMO]

We've had several people come through who wouldn't use IEMs (2 bassists) and it just makes a mess of things. Don't be that guy ;-) There is a fair amount of latency out the mains and off the back walls and timing gets really wonky. Add to that they played with one ear in so they could hear the click and their amp, and I'm not sure they heard anything correctly. Best to do as already suggested and fit in.

 

[klokker]

For the church gigs I've played I would forget an amp/cab. Get a good preamp/DI where you can shape your tone a bit and work with your sound people to get a decent monitor mix/IEM. The way to hear yourself (in my church experience) won't be helped by bringing a cab. They will tell you to turn it down etc.

Just get the gig rig you want. The Mesa into a 1x15 would be great. For church I would pray for competent sound people.

 

[allanhearn]

My experience with worship services has been ampless with in-ears. Must play to a click track and we all get our own mix that we control ourselves. I dont like no having an amp, but its not about me. Its getting a sound that worshipers can enjoy.

 

[John D Harris]

We've had several people come through who wouldn't use IEMs (2 bassists) and it just makes a mess of things. Don't be that guy ;-) There is a fair amount of latency out the mains and off the back walls and timing gets really wonky. Add to that they played with one ear in so they could hear the click and their amp, and I'm not sure they heard anything correctly. Best to do as already suggested and fit in.

In general, I agree, but it sounds like you are used to having a professional level PA and soundperson (and probably a largish sized sanctuary).

If there isn't a decent PA, then having an amp on stage is pretty much mandatory (preferably, with either a wireless for bass guitar to amp or a long enough instrument cable so you can walk around the room a bit to check on the level and EQ balance; or a person who knows what a balanced sound sounds like who can give you feedback on the level and EQ balance).

 

[KJMO]

In general, I agree, but it sounds like you are used to having a professional level PA and soundperson (and probably a largish sized sanctuary).

If there isn't a decent PA, then having an amp on stage is pretty much mandatory (preferably, with either a wireless for bass guitar to amp or a long enough instrument cable so you can walk around the room a bit to check on the level and EQ balance; or a person who knows what a balanced sound sounds like who can give you feedback on the level and EQ balance).

My take home is do what they are set up to do. If they are set up with IEMs don't be the person who has to have the only amp on stage, or a floor monitor. If they don't, do the best you can with an amp, but in church, it doesn't take much. I am biased though, as I've played in large churches and "church in a box" situations and IEMs really work, and they don't have to be expensive. But that's neither here nor there.

 

[RBC64]

I have severe hearing loss, I use an Ashdown studio 15, 300 watts, also it's DI through the house. Not a mega church but a decent size. I have to feel it to be able to hear it.

 

[jefframm]

I've been playing regularly at a variety of churches for the last 20 years. Almost all of the ones I've played at have gone "silent stage" - meaning no amps on stage at all and everyone is on IEM's. So I'll share my experience / perspective - with the caveat that everyone is different.

1) In terms of IEM's - I would strongly suggest getting custom molds made and buying high quality (multi-driver) IEM's. I use the Alclair Spires - which are 6 driver as I occasionally play guitar as well - so wanted something that works for both. I tried the inexpensive ones (KZ brand) that a lot of folks recommend - and for me, I just can't get a great seal without molds. If I smiled - the seal would break - and there goes the bass clarity. A lot of players like to use the BackBeat - which attaches to your strap and "thumps" your back, sorta simulating having an amp behind you. I tried one - and it wasn't for me. Instead, I use an Eich BassBoard - which you stand on and it has transducers and an isolated top - and for our setup I have the bass and the kick drum in my "feet". It's awesome and adds a lot to the IEM experience.

2) Almost every church I've played at for the last 15 years has used a click track. While it takes a little getting used to - it's very helpful if you have musicians of varying talent levels. Best case, your churches will have the ability for you to control your own in-ear mix, which then gives you control of not just the instruments and vocalists, but also the level of the click.

3) About 50% of the churches I've played at use "tracks". It's exactly what it sounds like - where in addition to the click, you're hearing pre-recorded track(s) that fill in parts or ambient sounds that the worship leader may want to use to fill out the sound. More so than "clicks" - the use of tracks tends to be a very "emotional" topic for lots of players.

Given your point about wanting to really be able to hear yourself, I think high-quality IEM's are the way to go. You can get great ones for less than $1000, which is roughly what you might have to put into an amp / cab rig (depending on how big / fancy a rig you're after). I'm 66 and play almost every week at the same church now - so the BassBoard stays in place, and all I have to haul in is a small pedalboard and my bass. I love not dragging an amp and cabs around.

Good luck - and have fun!

 

[John D Harris]

My take home is do what they are set up to do. If they are set up with IEMs don't be the person who has to have the only amp on stage, or a floor monitor. If they don't, do the best you can with an amp, but in church, it doesn't take much. I am biased though, as I've played in large churches and "church in a box" situations and IEMs really work, and they don't have to be expensive. But that's neither here nor there.

I agree!

 

[Kenny056]

I use a Rumble 100 and a Zoom ms-60b+ into the PA. We have an electric keyboard, a wurlitzer and the choir, so im not competing with a drummer. My amp is purely as a monitor for me and the MD on keyboard right beside me. I have much nicer amps but i have very little space on stage, so the Rumble is a good fit. I dont leave anything at the church, so I wanted something easy to load in and out.

 

[dazmond]

My church started on the path going IEM and ampless a few years ago. A few people still refuse, and the sound is always much worse for it. We use an app to adjust our own monitor mixes and eq, and after getting used to it my mix has never sounded better (to me). Hopefully the sound guys are sending the monitor feeds post gain/pre eq. I'm using a simple preamp and tuner. I don't think you need to spend money on $$$ IEM. I've been using a $20 pair of salnotes 7hz zero and it sounds clean and clear. Try a Truthear gate or 7hz Zero2 for more built in bass. I would rather hear a truthful signal as FOH is getting to know how to accurately make eq adjustments if needed. You can play with different tips for more isolation, but for silent stage I really don't think you need to.

 

[zackelekes]

If you can easily afford it and have the space, get your dream rig. I own a fairly large amp collection. Here are the Mesa amps I have: D180, 400, 400+, Buster, Strategy Eight:88, Titan V12, M9 Carbine.

For the most part I stopped gigging on bass around 2008. I did a few years after that as an audio tech and probably did 5 gigs on bass. In 2011 I started collecting amps. They are my guilty pleasure and they serve little practical purpose other than to give me joy.


If the church is set up for IEMs and has a good audio tech, that's the way I would go. Halls of worship are often big boomy environments, so it best to keep the stage volume low; not that this always happens in worship groups.

If you want to use an amp and the stage volume is relatively low, I would suggest a small rig that can be tilted back in front of you. I have an old GK 700RB/112 combo. It's bit on the large side for this purpose; about the same size as a Subway 115.
Keeping it small may not be reasonable if the group plays loud. A Mesa D350 with a Subway 115 is relatively small and will be capable of moderate volume. The Subway 112 is a bit smaller and you only loose about 1dB of Sensitivity. If you add a matching cab with the D350 you get +6dB. Using an 800W Subway amp with a single cab will give you +3.5dB over the D350. FYI the Boogie channel in the TT800 was modeled on the 400 and 400+ .

Calculated SPL (estimates):

• D350 with one Subway 112 = ~120dB
• D350 with two Subway 112 = ~126dB
• D350 with one Subway 115 = ~121dB
• D350 with two Subway 115 = ~127dB

• 800 with one Subway 112 = ~ 123.5dB
• 800 with two Subway 112 = ~ 129.5dB
• 800 with one Subway 115 = ~ 124.5dB
• 800 with two Subway 115 + ~ 130.5dB

That's a nice collection! Are there times when you considered selling the D-180?
Cause I'd be interested.

 

[Wasnex]

That's a nice collection! Are there times when you considered selling the D-180?
Cause I'd be interested.

Not yet.

 

[JHRetro]

This is a great thread. I hope you all can clear some things up for me.
My church's set up most days is this.
Musicians: acoustic grand piano, me, vocalists, (occasionally drummer).

Audio audiences: people in church, people on-line (live broadcast)

How the sound is inputed: back of house mixing board. Piano and vocalists have mics to the board. The bass amp has a dry XLR out that connects to the board.

How sound is projected to people:
-- speakers project audio to the nave

-- the piano might not need a lot of help inside the church​

-- vocalists and the bass come out through the speakers​

-- signal gets sent online

This has been a work in progress, and now that's it's working, the sound people say they don't need the amp anymore and the music minister wants the amp off the fairly small chancel to make space physically and visually..

I need some type of monitor so I can hear myself. A MarkBass 801 is an option (tiny amp that could be a monitor).

I'm interested in the IEMs.

Here are the questions:
Can I have an IEM just for myself?
Does it need to go the the BOH first and then come back to me?
If it needs to go the BOH, what do the sound guys need to give me my own mix (or any mix)?
Am I missing other solutions?

Sorry for the long question. Thanks for any information you can share.

 

[squish]

This is a great thread. I hope you all can clear some things up for me.

I'm interested in the IEMs.

Here are the questions:
Can I have an IEM just for myself?
Does it need to go the the BOH first and then come back to me?
If it needs to go the BOH, what do the sound guys need to give me my own mix (or any mix)?
Am I missing other solutions?

Sorry for the long question. Thanks for any information you can share.

I've gigged many hundreds of church services. We had a big room with a decent budget. Most of us wore IEMs. I found a massive deal on a Shure SE846 earbuds which are great for bass. I've tried all the tips and the gray rubber ones are durable, fit in my ears great and are easy to pop in and out. I was very surprised to discover this since I took a lot of time working with the Comply foam tips.
Your IEM mix comes from the engineer. You just ask for what you want and at what level. It is like a floor monitor but shoved in your ears. Lol. If you want an exact tone, a bass preamp/DI pedal would work great. Like others said, the amp/cab thing is a lot of trouble to haul and set up. And because the sound is filling a big room, it can be unreliable or not inspiring. IEMs are consistent and sound great.

 

[JHRetro]

I've gigged many hundreds of church services. We had a big room with a decent budget. Most of us wore IEMs. I found a massive deal on a Shure SE846 earbuds which are great for bass. I've tried all the tips and the gray rubber ones are durable, fit in my ears great and are easy to pop in and out. I was very surprised to discover this since I took a lot of time working with the Comply foam tips.
Your IEM mix comes from the engineer. You just ask for what you want and at what level. It is like a floor monitor but shoved in your ears. Lol. If you want an exact tone, a bass preamp/DI pedal would work great. Like others said, the amp/cab thing is a lot of trouble to haul and set up. And because the sound is filling a big room, it can be unreliable or not inspiring. IEMs are consistent and sound great.

Thanks @squish, This is seems more straightforward than I had envisioned. I'll look into IEMs.