Pre-composed material....is it possible? Good idea?

[scorpionldr]

Lately I'm having a drive to make something completely ridiculous in terms of music. But I want to avoid writing with a band with new musicians who don't know me, I'd rather spend the good amount of time and effort it takes to get the ideas out in a listenable form (like sequenced on my own) and then have people listen and judge whether or not they'd want to be involved.

Is it a good idea? bad idea? My major concerns are having a good end product in a cd format, and having a good live show where it doesn't look like its entirely me, like it's a successful band.

The only way I can relate to it is take a band like Napalm Death, that after over 30 years is still the tightest band. They put out something that matches both ends of the spectrum from records to live shows, and don't waste time.

 

[BelleNoireBass]

If you have all the instruments and are able to record everything on your own then go for it. I don't think it's a necessarily a bad idea, but I don't know how easily you'll find other musicians who want to play everything that you wrote. Maybe just try and get some good rhythm tracks and chord progressions that you can show others and see what they think and not create the whole entire song on your own.

When my current band starts writing a song we all throw out different ideas and then when we like something we go with that and start evolving it from there, progression, transitions, etc.

I feel like having input from the other members instead of just one of us telling everyone else what to play makes the whole song writing process a lot more enjoyable. My band is pretty good at saying yes or no about things and then just moving on, nobody gets "butt hurt" which is nice. That's just me though. Try out your idea let us know how it works out.

 

[scorpionldr]

If you have all the instruments and are able to record everything on your own then go for it. I don't think it's a necessarily a bad idea, but I don't know how easily you'll find other musicians who want to play everything that you wrote. Maybe just try and get some good rhythm tracks and chord progressions that you can show others and see what they think and not create the whole entire song on your own.

When my current band starts writing a song we all throw out different ideas and then when we like something we go with that and start evolving it from there, progression, transitions, etc.

I feel like having input from the other members instead of just one of us telling everyone else what to play makes the whole song writing process a lot more enjoyable. My band is pretty good at saying yes or no about things and then just moving on, nobody gets "butt hurt" which is nice. That's just me though. Try out your idea let us know how it works out.

lol well I have all the virtual instruments, which means I can lay out tracks........when I actually have time to lay out tracks. Yea, I hear that it can be considered a little pompous/condescending to provide already written material, but I had always worked in the past with people who A: wanted to write original, but everyone had a different level of skillset, and therefore everyone got butt-hurt just by the fact that they felt collaborative ideas were lackluster, or B: The people that had the skillset, but never wanted to spend time actually writing what they played, really just jamming.

Rather than everyone going home, collectively writing stuff say in Tuxguitar, and sharing with everyone else throughout the week so that a rehearsal was a practice session on its way to gigs, we just jammed and said "oh maybe this will work" and people's own individual goals/dissatisfaction from not playing out live had people drop out gradually. That equals a new batch of songs ready to hit the toilet because there aren't people who want to play them live by the time things are all ready.

Its not that I want to suppress someone, but really...maybe its just me, but the goal is the stage, not the basement.

I've spent plenty of years in the basement.

 

[DaDrew2112]

It's a good idea, just make sure you're open to positive changes other musicians might/will bring out

 

[jive1]

In my experiences and observations, if you don't give the people in an original project some level of creative input and ownership, you gotta be prepared to pay otherwise people have a tendency to lose interest real quick.

If you are commited to this route, come up with a great product on your own and use it to shop gigs. Once you have gigs lined up, it'll be easier to recruit and obtain players, and get them to come to a rehearsal.

 

[fdeck]

In my experiences and observations, if you don't give the people in an original project some level of creative input and ownership, you gotta be prepared to pay otherwise people have a tendency to lose interest real quick.

If you are commited to this route, come up with a great product on your own and use it to shop gigs. Once you have gigs lined up, it'll be easier to recruit and obtain players, and get them to come to a rehearsal.

Very good summary. I have done this kind of work, albeit outside of rock genres. In addition to what Jive says, it will be a good idea to have legible charts, and excellent band leadership skills.

 

[pklima]

In my experiences and observations, if you don't give the people in an original project some level of creative input and ownership, you gotta be prepared to pay otherwise people have a tendency to lose interest real quick.

Yup. I know a guy who is pretty successful (touring on two continents, playing for crowds of 15K etc.) doing this kind of thing, and he basically keps total ownership, writes stuff with help from a guitarist, gets everybody else to arrange their parts so he's happy with them, and pays everybody good money.

If you're not prepared to throw a lot of cash at this, I think sketches to give people an idea might be better-received than completed songs. And definitely tell them you're flexible, the arrangements are not final etc. Unless you really do want them to play every note just like your recording, but that will be a tough sell.

I've got a ridiculous idea of my own which should hopefully soon be gig-ready. I have some recordings for that but tbh they haven't been terribly useful in recruiting. What's been more useful, it seems, is recordings of my other bands which show that we're reasonably popular, can get gigs and can draw crowds.

 

[scorpionldr]

I was doing some thinking last night. You are right. The concept of writing things completely on my own does turn musicians more into personnel than peers. Maybe I'll do a 6 song EP to sort of put feet on the ground in a manner of "if you can play this, we should probably play together." Probably saves me some time as well. Never know how far you'll get with a project name like "BR00TAL G00CH".

Also maybe in relation to my last thread it'd be good to sort of recycle musicians I work with commonly in a "pay it forward" styled scheme; "you help my project, I help yours" etc.

 

[fdeck]

Being "personnel" isn't necessarily a bad thing. There are lots of players who prefer it this way, including me. I'm no good at songwriting, and have never written anything in my life, though I gig regularly.

 

[tZer]

+1 Jive, fdeck.

There are plenty of players out there who are more than OK being personnel - some even prefer it!

If you have great and very complete songs that you want to be played as written, then make sure you can give other players what they need to do their thing and make sure all expectations are set up front.

Personally - when I discovered Sonar and the fact that I could compose, arrange and produce entire symphonic pieces, I suddenly felt that it was a great way to 'composite' song ideas for a band in the way you describe. Ultimately what I found was it was a great way to do everything by myself and not necessarily a great way to compose for a group of players who might want to have some iota of self in what they perform.

I prefer the old-school method of coming in with a good set of changes and lyrics and letting the experts develop their parts. With the right players, songs develop very quickly that way. The other way demands hours/days/weeks of your own personal time on the hope that the finished product rings true for the rest of the band.

IME having such complete sounding drafts can make other players feel unneeded. I recall playing a piece a friend of mine and I created where we composed and performed all parts. We used a drum machine and I very purposefully made the part super-simple on the idea that the drummer would take ownership of it and make it his own.

When the drummer heard the song, he said, "Well, hell... You don't need me." - He was half joking - but the fact is that the completeness of the draft made all the 'fun work' that a lot of players look forward to appear to be finished.

 

[scorpionldr]

+1 Jive, fdeck.

There are plenty of players out there who are more than OK being personnel - some even prefer it!

If you have great and very complete songs that you want to be played as written, then make sure you can give other players what they need to do their thing and make sure all expectations are set up front.

Personally - when I discovered Sonar and the fact that I could compose, arrange and produce entire symphonic pieces, I suddenly felt that it was a great way to 'composite' song ideas for a band in the way you describe. Ultimately what I found was it was a great way to do everything by myself and not necessarily a great way to compose for a group of players who might want to have some iota of self in what they perform.

I prefer the old-school method of coming in with a good set of changes and lyrics and letting the experts develop their parts. With the right players, songs develop very quickly that way. The other way demands hours/days/weeks of your own personal time on the hope that the finished product rings true for the rest of the band.

IME having such complete sounding drafts can make other players feel unneeded. I recall playing a piece a friend of mine and I created where we composed and performed all parts. We used a drum machine and I very purposefully made the part super-simple on the idea that the drummer would take ownership of it and make it his own.

When the drummer heard the song, he said, "Well, hell... You don't need me." - He was half joking - but the fact is that the completeness of the draft made all the 'fun work' that a lot of players look forward to appear to be finished.

lol well drummers get offended by any booming sound their kit hasn't made. Unless its from another 'desirable' drummer .

The real reason I want to take this approach with BG is I actually have the posting history here of how frustrating each and every period of trying to make a band work together was, from name change to lineup change, to being short-handed because we never found "the right" guitarist. You know the saying "wish in one hand and **** in the other, let me know which comes first"? Thats what it felt like. And to imagine I put blind faith in it for 6 whole years.

Towards the end I recall trying to explain things after I had actually gotten my first drum machine to my drummer (we're still best friends, ironically), and I had all these ideas, riffs, song structures, you name it. The response? " *laughs* ah man thats too crazy. Your just too crazy man. Your great but your just way too crazy." 6 years. One basement gig. Countless amounts of BS. For what? To drive myself mad.

From that point I had a "what have I done with my life!?" moment and swore off bands, and basically worked by myself on my own project (which ironically had it's TB management forum debut as well ).

Well, long story short my own family even sprung a surprize CL listing on me from a guy who actually knew what he was talking about. Ironically thats the band I ended up in. The cover band works because we actually have charts. If we didn't, I guarantee it would unravel.

Having done the FL studio stuff got me "nice quality" comments from the friends. Tuxguitar I found out about and I was amazed how much more developed ideas could come. I don't have a problem with contribution, but I have a major fear (I would actually call it that) of just having a rehearsal of just pure, utter BS like the flashback I just shared with you guys. No progress, no direction, spiteful reactive natures of members towards the one guy who tries to make things work.

 

[tZer]

...I don't have a problem with contribution, but I have a major fear (I would actually call it that) of just having a rehearsal of just pure, utter BS like the flashback I just shared with you guys. No progress, no direction, spiteful reactive natures of members towards the one guy who tries to make things work.

I can relate to everything you said and I see a little of my own mindset in what you seem to be saying which I why I wanted to share my own experience doing essentially what you describe. I saw it as a great time-saver and efficiency thing too. It's sort of an illusion when it comes to wanting to work with and as a band.

The one really solid take-away was that working with the right people is so much better in so many ways - obviously.

Using technology definitely can take an idea from in your head to in everyone's ears very effectively - no doubt. In some circles, that's a really useful thing to be able to do and like you (I think), I was always able to make home-baked, piano-roll edited, sample-rich composites that sounded VERY real.

If I wanted to follow in the footsteps of hip-hop and techno artists who use technology AS the band, that would be THE way to use my time.

I always called even my most 'real' sounding pieces 'drafts' in the hopes that everyone understood that even though it sounds so complete, I really want you to take these parts and make them your own. But the fact is that once you present something that sounds that complete, that's how people hear it and you almost ruin a part of their ability to bring their own take to it.

Nothing beats a well constructed progression and solid composition on an acoustic guitar with the melody sung over it for everyone else to vividly hear what they want to do. If you fill in the blanks for them, it really removes a critical layer from the creative process.

I also learned that spending time creating music with technology can be really fun and really time-consuming even if it appears to be saving time on the back end. What I've found is that time can be so much better spent working on the song with players. Now that presumes you have players who want to work like that.

But think about it. The Beatles could come into the studio, John could play the song through on guitar/piano - the rest of the band could make notes and pretty much complete a song the same day. Sometimes many songs. Not necessarily release-ready and creating the arrangements certainly added some hours - but the overall completion of the core song happened very quickly and that's the most important part of the whole thing.

I think that's a great way to work with and as a group. Otherwise you are a solo artist and a backing band.

 

[pklima]

Nothing beats a well constructed progression and solid composition on an acoustic guitar with the melody sung over it for everyone else to vividly hear what they want to do.

This is very true. Well, piano might be even better than acoustic guitar. But either way... that kind of "this is the song, fill in the details" is to me a lot more fun than either being given a complete arrangement with all parts written out (which is good in theory but usually results in me thinking the bass part is too damn many notes) or being asked to participate in a songwriting process (which bores me to death, seriously).

 

[tZer]

This is very true. Well, piano might be even better than acoustic guitar. But either way... that kind of "this is the song, fill in the details" is to me a lot more fun than either being given a complete arrangement with all parts written out (which is good in theory but usually results in me thinking the bass part is too damn many notes) or being asked to participate in a songwriting process (which bores me to death, seriously).

That's what I came to after spending many months/years exploring the digital world. It can be very deceiving (or exactly what you need) - but for me, in the end it comes down to the human element. While I was able to really effectively create and present my own vision I was not getting the benefit of other perspectives and all my stuff sounded like "my stuff".

It was all very "complete" which again made it all sound complete. I think that almost subliminally triggers a musician's mind from 'composer' to 'player' automatically.

"That's the song? OK, I'll learn my part and we'll get on with it" - but that player isn't creating anything - they're learning a part and acting as a side man - which is perfect for the guy who wants to be 100% responsible for the entire song - which is totally fine.

For me, however, I bore myself pretty quickly and wouldn't want to be a member of a club that would have me as a member, let alone it's sole song-writer! Yeesshhh...

I like sitting in our comfy band room, listening or presenting the changes and melody - then bringing it all to life that way.

 

[scorpionldr]

i think for classic rock its easier than today's metal to go "fill in the blanks". I thought about doing the majority of the writing because its a lot easier to start something than to join something (I've wanted to try being a frontman). I have the "entirely solo" project (which is like alt-electronic/grind), and then I have this one where I sort of want to provide guidelines and make one of these traditional setups.

 

[tZer]

Being able to use those tools is very valuable and I am sure you'll find a way to use them that makes sense. I'd simply caution you to not let the amazing amount of things you can do with technology obscure the more simple, equally effective routes. The tools and toys of tech can be so fun and seem to bring so much value that you can end up in 1's and 0's land a lot more than you really want to be. Just about any common band style song creation process can be done low-tech. Sometimes tech is the perfect tool, sometimes a beater and a tape deck does the trick.

Another thing I've learned is that these things have a way of sorting themselves out no matter how much we try to micromanage the process. Once your mind is opened to the endless potential that tech brings to the table it can become a never ended quest for just the right not, sound, sample - the computer doesn't care how much time you want to spend diddling with it and if you are anything like me, you can look up from the screen and realize it's 4am and wonder how the hell that just happened.

Keep it all in scope. Use the right tool for the job.

 

[pklima]

i think for classic rock its easier than today's metal to go "fill in the blanks". I thought about doing the majority of the writing because its a lot easier to start something than to join something (I've wanted to try being a frontman). I have the "entirely solo" project (which is like alt-electronic/grind), and then I have this one where I sort of want to provide guidelines and make one of these traditional setups.

Hmm... I suspect the kind of people who would want to play metal will be even more resistant to being handed complete songs with all the blanks pre-filled, though. Not saying it's a bad idea, just that it will be more challenging from the "HR department" perspective, LOL.

 

[scorpionldr]

Hmm... I suspect the kind of people who would want to play metal will be even more resistant to being handed complete songs with all the blanks pre-filled, though. Not saying it's a bad idea, just that it will be more challenging from the "HR department" perspective, LOL.

lol well I can tell them if it sucks in their eyes that embodies ever more metal attitude.

Undoubtedly there would be opposition to the concept of anyone using electronics outside of the guitar amp. But there's either A: handling everything on your own, working alone, probably finding yourself lacking on the exposure end in the scene or B: turning it into a band, which people in groups spread word of mouth, draw more attention, etc.

I'm really coming from the standpoint that I haven't written with other people because the amount of like-minded people are minimal so they either A: Have established bands or B: simply don't play because of whatever other reasons.

 

[pklima]

I'm not sure electronics will meet so much resistance anymore; I see quite a few metal bands in the local musician wanted ads looking for people to add electronics. I guess they want to sound a bit more modern. It's really the "pre-composed" part that will be hard to sell to potential band members. Not impossible, but hard.

 

[scorpionldr]

lol how does a person "add electronics" anyhow? I can't see Skrillex just carrying around his computer and an amp everywhere he goes. Maybe if there was a soundbank you could MIDI out to that you could connect to an amp it would make more sense......